Cobblestein Characters (a different Gestalt / e6 etc...)

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Cobblestein Character Rules V1.0.2

Based on a few truths:
Tiers are determined by spells,
casters don't like loosing caster levels
non-casters generally don't mind dipping all over the place
non or half-casters are generally weaker than full casters

This system is meant to make full casters reconsider losing caster levels, and give the non-casters a little help keeping up.

Each character gets a total number of 42 C-Points throughout their career as they would normally level up to 20.

Higher numbered levels in any given class cost more points to take; but, you have the option of having more, lower levels.  These extra levels grant extra BaB, saves, HD etc... just as they would a higher level character.

We will use a wizard 20 for an baseline example.

The wizard just levels up when he normally would according to the standard rules, nothing special.
But a multi-classed party member, can have as many as 15 class levels(5th level in 3 different base classes) when the wizard hits 10th.
To keep things simple for now, PrCs count toward your highest base class level when determining point cost,(Wizard10, Incantatrix10 still just levels up normally)


wizard 20 is wizard 20
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20   <----  when this level would normally be attained
                                                                                                                                                          
1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2   2   2   2   2  2   3  3   3    3  3   4     <--   you get this many C-Points                      


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20   <----   <----to take this numbered level in any given class
                                                                                                                                                        
1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2   2   2   2   2  2   3  3   3    3  3   4     <--   <--- it costs this many C-Points

(ya those charts are the same for now, separated for clarity and future points tweaking)

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Examples to demonstrate variety in a given party.

wizard 20 progression: just as any
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

druid 5, planar shepherd 10, druid 5: again just like normal, b/c the PrC counts druid levels to determine point cost for each PS level
1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4  5    6   7  8   9 10   6   7   8   9 10

rogue1-5 as normal, when the party reaches 6th level, he gets 2 C-Points, he can choose to take the 6th fighter level(which costs 2 C-Points); or, he can choose 2 levels in other, lower classes.

so when the wizard takes his sixth level the rogue takes two scout levels.
wizard 6 & rogue5, scout2
          7 & rogue5, scout4
          8 & rogue5, scout5, fighter1
          9 & rogue5, scout5, fighter2, cloistered cleric1
         10 & rogue5, scout5, fighter2, cloistered cleric1, barbarian1, factotum1
etc...
     
Jack of all trades progression:(optimal use of C-Points)
theoretical build that takes 5 or less levels in any base classes(no PrCs), maxes out at 42 levels when the wizard hits 20th

Two class build example:
Binder, Artificer if the player tries to keep the levels even:
[spoiler]
1    Binder1
2    Binder1, Artificer1
3    Binder1, Artificer2
4    Binder2, Artificer2
5    Binder3, Artificer2
6    Binder4, Artificer3
7    Binder5, Artificer4
8    Binder5, Artificer5  (here you have to either save a point or let one class pull ahead, we'll save one for now...)
9    Binder6, Artificer5
10  Binder6, Artificer6
11  Binder7, Artificer6
12  Binder7, Artificer7
13  Binder8, Artificer7
14  Binder8, Artificer8
15  Binder9, Artificer9  (spent our extra point)
16  Binder10, Artificer9 (save another point)
17  Binder11, Artificer10  (spent the extra point)
18  Binder11, Artificer11  (save an extra point)
19  Binder12, Artificer12  (spent the extra)
20  Binder13, Artificer13
[/spoiler]
note this is without using theurge classes(which would be perfectly fine)
I'll do a gish later, or someone else can

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Predicted changes for the good:

I don't think the level 10 casters will have too much trouble if their mundane peers are effectively level 15...
save or suck/die will be less effective due to higher saves,
rocket tag should be slightly reduced because of the extra HD floating around...
feats will not be as scarce for the non-caster types

Bloodlines, they are not as good here b/c they add to any calculation based off of how many levels you have in a certain class. 
They will boost up the C-Point cost of all your character levels, compounded by PrC's.
________________________________________________________

Potential problems found so far...

Anything based on HD, like ToB, a three level dip can net you an  insane IL in the dippy build

Ardent, he's up to something I'm sure of it...

this doesn't help the crumby casters like Warmage at all, unless you want to make a gish/theurge or something out of it...

Any other gross borked-ness that can result in mundanes outclassing the Tier 1's? (I'm not aiming to fix the problem so well that it creates the opposite...)

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Last reserved one, go ahead.

 I'll revisit this tomorrow and try to explain more clearly, without repeating myself too much...

any comments of confusion / balance issues / rage etc... welcome,

[Amechra]

Have anything that would be based off of your HD or ECL be instead based of your EWL (effective wizard level).

There, all better on the bloodline and ToB fronts.

Ardent? They can't raise their ML above their EWL.

But otherwise, this looks nice.

[Catty Nebulart]

I think some prestige classes are undully penalized, and prestige classes that do not add directly to the base class should probably be avoided under this system. Say warmind for example, which is a half caster but will cost much points, whereas taking some levels in psychic warrior will be much cheaper. If the class does not add to class X you should count it as a separate class, though theurges will be complicated by this.

Also here is a problem build, take 1 level in a variety of base classes until you qualify for Ur-Priest. Level Ur Priest. 16 points for ur-priest 10 and 4-5 points on classes before you qualify. You get 9'th level casting even earlier. (around 12'th or 13'th level)

Those classes that don't synergize well outside of themselves are still in trouble (soulblade, you need high levels to keep advancing your soulblades) but it does fix a lot of issues. If you want high level abilities of your base class you are out of luck though unless you want to be way behind (Ranger for the TWF feats with low dex or something). Same if you want some prestige classes that give their own casting (Warmind, assassin, blackguard, etc)

[Eardatch]

Seems like it would be pretty easy to ad-hoc each prestige class, determining which ones should stack onto a base class (the ones that advance a casting/manifesting/etc progression) and those that shouldn't.

Overall it seems like a very workable system, but I'm a little concerned: are hit-dice/saves/BAB/Max skill ranks determined by the sum of all class levels, or as a partial gestalt system where one counts only the best EWL levels for each character? EG: would a Rouge 5/Fighter5/Barbarian 5 have 5d6+5d10+5d12 Hit dice, or just 5d10+5d12 (top 10 hit-dice, as a level 10 character)?

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Have anything that would be based off of your HD or ECL be instead based of your EWL (effective wizard level).

Wizard was just an example; but, I know what you're talking about.  I think i will use that and just call it ecl to keep things streamlined.

fighter5, rogue5, barbarian5 == ecl 10
                                            Druid10 == ecl 10
Fighter 10(bad idea but possible) == ecl 10
warblade5, swordsage5, crusader5 == ecl 10 & max IL is 10
Ecl will be derived from exp

My first version had exp cost tables, but I think WotC might have issues with that, notice how there is no exp chart in the SRD, there is a reason for that.
So now I have a point system that can run in tandem with the existing exp system.

@catty I agree mundane prc's and DFA, healer and the like still are not helped much,
but keep in mind that any 20 level build can still work normally. 
I think this system helps the worst classes the most (fighter, commoner etc...); but, if I figure out or am presented with an elegant solution to these issues, I will include it.

@eardatch your example would have all 15 HD and bab, max skills etc... will be calculated from that. 
I think the higher skills is of most concern to me, but they will remain high for now. 
As for making a decision for each prc, yes it is possible, but that is not ideal for character building when players are constantly bugging the DM about which PrC's they can buy on the cheap.
I guess I could make a master list, then try to come up with a rule that results in that list.


Thanks for the input everyone, it is much appreciated

[Eardatch]

Why not make classes with largely linear advancement, like fighters, rogues, and arguably monks, have a flat cost that doesn't increase?

I remember a suggestion a while back that was to force character to multi-class so that no class could be more than 5 levels higher than the next highest class, so a wizard 5 would need to take a level in something else before he could take level 6 in wizard. Your system as is would seem to essentially force multiclassing (since there really is no reason to take more than 6 levels in fighter for example, and then only for dungeoncrasher when you could take two or more levels in a different class for the same cost as one level in fighter after level 5.)

I would rather steepen the curve of the level cost, at least for casting classes (perhaps increasing at every odd level when a new spell level is gained) rather than let dippers stack tons of hit-dice on top of each other which can easily throw things off the RNG curve.

A low-power system I came up with today would have full casters be limited to 11 levels (6th level spells) at 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, and 6 CP at each level respectively, while linear classes might have between 20 and 36 levels, each costing only 1 CP a level, with partial casters somewhere in between those two. The catch is that a character only has as many hit-dice (and by extension levels to BAB and saves) as the ECL of the character, which is determined by the level a single classed full caster would be, with the best hit-dice being counted out of the levels in classes the character has. Under this system, for example, a level 8 wizard would have the same ECL as a character with all the abilities of a level 20 barbarian, but with only 8 hit-dice, +8 BAB, etc.