Author Topic: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)  (Read 4026 times)

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Bozwevial

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Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« on: August 02, 2008, 11:38:49 AM »
I had several thoughts on this subject while explaining to someone at the game table why halflings got a bonus to both AC and attack rolls.

1) Small size also provides a bonus to Hide checks. Presumably this is because halflings, to a human, are smaller and therefore harder to notice. However, going by the same logic that provides halflings with both AC and attack bonuses, a halfling should also receive a bonus to Spot. Actually, strike that: All races should get a bonus (if smaller than Medium) or penalty (if larger) to Spot checks equal to the bonus/penalty their size provides them with on Hide checks. Two members of any race, regardless of size, should be able to have the same chance (barring racial bonuses to Hide) of spotting each other as any other race. As it stands, giant rogues are likely not very successful, and pixie rogues probably surprise themselves while shaving. If they shave.

This also makes sense from the perspective of an individual. A halfling is more likely to notice a skulking human than the human is simply because, from the halfling's point of view, the human takes up twice as much of his field of vision. Replace "skulking human" with "lever to open the human's secret passage", and you've still got a viable reason for size-based Spot bonuses, because a halfling would have constructed that lever smaller. To the halfling, the human's lever is much bigger than it should reasonably be, and he has a much better chance of finding it.

2) This arose from the same discussion, and is less game mechanics than it is flavor. I'm putting the main idea in italics: A society's regulations and restrictions on magic are inversely proportional to the race's size. Think about it: For a giant village, a fireball isn't going to cause as much devastation as it would in a human village. The damage is the same, but the fireball of a giant is exactly the same size as that of a human, and that radius looks a lot less village-devastating when you're trying to cram giant huts into it rather than human-sized huts. Giants are likely to have relaxed attitudes to magic, simply because it's not as effective at their size as it is for humans, at least in terms of range and area. The reverse is also true: A village of pixies would be terrified at the approach of a spellcaster, who could probably set the entire village aflame with a single fireball. And while the range of, say, finger of death is the same when cast by pixie or giant, the range looks a lot more impressive when you're about two and a half feet tall. Thus, smaller races are more likely to put restrictions on magic, taking steps to do so ranging from confiscating spell components at the gate to having an antimagic field in important areas to outlawing spellcasters in general.

Of course, you could scale spell sizes to fit the caster, but that opens up a can of worms that would probably be large enough to create a scale model of Kyuss. And then there's the argument that there are very few giants who become wizards, but the argument still stands.

Any thoughts or comments on this?

tl;dr Give races a Spot modifier equal to their size-granted Hide modifier, and giants think magic is less scary than humans think it is.

Ubernoob

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 02:32:47 PM »
1) Ask a short person what they can see from point X.  Now ask a tall person what they can see from point X.  Assuming they have the same eyesight the field of vision is identical.  The size of your body has nothing to do with field of vision.  Only your vantage point does.  Basically, size bonuses to hide already do what you want to do.

2) Umm... I have no idea what to say here.
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Guyr Adamantine

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 03:04:16 PM »
1) Nonsense. You make spot checks to notice hidden things, wether though Hide or Sleight of Hand. Bigger things are harder to hide. Your "bonus" is really a penalty to their own checks, as it doesn't affect your own ability to see.

2) What point were you trying too make? You kinda lost me.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 03:07:35 PM by Guyr Adamantine »

Ubernoob

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 03:23:53 PM »
1) Nonsense. You make spot checks to notice hidden things, wether though Hide or Sleight of Hand. Bigger things are harder to hide. Your "bonus" is really a penalty to their own checks, as it doesn't affect your own ability to see.
Small things are harder to see.  Period.  It doesn't matter if it is a titan or a halfling watching you from 200 feet up.  If you are small and far away you are hard to spot.  Same goes for big creatures.  A titan would see another titan from across the mountain range just as easily as a human would.  Eyesight is determined by shape and evolution, not size of the creature.

Halflings are sneaky bitches.  It's not a problem.  I think what you really want is to enforce distance penalties for large height.  A 40' creature would be taking -4 to spot checks against his own feet.
Quote
2) What point were you trying too make? You kinda lost me.
My point was that I was confused.  It didn't make much sense.
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Guyr Adamantine

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 03:27:01 PM »
My comments were aimed at Bozwevial... ???

Ubernoob

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 03:32:05 PM »
My comments were aimed at Bozwevial... ???
Clearly I'm smoking crack with the sage.
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Guyr Adamantine

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 03:35:41 PM »
Apologies accepted. :eh

Chemus

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 03:36:33 PM »
@ Bozwevial

1.) The logic is the same to me as the regular system, but I think that giving the bonus to hide is less damaging to the spot/perception paradigm. Small people are easier to hide in a medium world is good enough flavor for me.

2.) What I understand is this: the scale of magic, being based off of medium, makes it less scary to large+ and more scary to small+, yes? Be that as it may, pixies and others often get magic resistance. The scale of larger creatures makes them more scary. If magic scales, they become disproportionately powerful, with free widens and elnarges that just get better with size.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 07:41:00 PM »
ubernoob: You do have a point. I doubt the issue would ever arise anyway, it was just a logical conclusion I wanted to solve.

Guyr: The short version of my second point was that because magic doesn't scale with size, societies would respond to it differently.

Chemus: I wasn't proposing a scaling magic system-Like I said, that opens up a large set of problems. I'm simply pointing out that, for the sake of argument, a halfling city is likely to be more wary of a wizard than, say, a storm giant town. As I said, it's not about game mechanics as much as it is flavor. If game mechanics come into it at all, it would be in regards to NPCs and their likelihood of being a spellcaster based on race-but then again, I suppose that's already accounted for.

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 11:48:49 PM »
2) is a good point, but I'm guessing people who start to blast villages (of *any* species) are unlikely to live long.
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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2008, 04:51:58 AM »
1) Humans can see just fine (assuming that they weren't blinded, missing their eyes for some odd reason, etc), it's just hard to see small things when they're hidden (like a needle in a haystack, or in this case, a halfing in a thicket). Halflings see things just as well as humans can; they'd also have a hard time finding a needle in a haystack or one of their friends in a thicket. To say that small things should get bonuses implies that if someone laid on the ground, they could increase their Spot checks significantly...   

2) This doesn't really make that much sense to me... I mean, sure the fireballs aren't gonna hurt the giants, but they're going to hurt everything around the giants, and that costs money to repair. I dunno about you, but I don't like my stuff getting blown up, regardless if it hurts me or not.  :P

 

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Bozwevial

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2008, 11:21:35 PM »
1) Humans can see just fine (assuming that they weren't blinded, missing their eyes for some odd reason, etc), it's just hard to see small things when they're hidden (like a needle in a haystack, or in this case, a halfing in a thicket). Halflings see things just as well as humans can; they'd also have a hard time finding a needle in a haystack or one of their friends in a thicket. To say that small things should get bonuses implies that if someone laid on the ground, they could increase their Spot checks significantly...   

2) This doesn't really make that much sense to me... I mean, sure the fireballs aren't gonna hurt the giants, but they're going to hurt everything around the giants, and that costs money to repair. I dunno about you, but I don't like my stuff getting blown up, regardless if it hurts me or not.  :P

1) My original point wasn't based on height, it was based on the size of the eyeballs in question.

2) It's not that magic is more deadly. A finger of death spell is potent whether you are halfling or giant, but from the halfling's scale, the range on that spell is much larger, whereas the giant might think "As long as I'm trying to get so close, why don't I just tear his damn head off instead?" From a similar point of view, the fireball of both races is the same size, but the halfling might fry half the village where the giant barely manages to incinerate a few huts.

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 04:14:23 AM »
Ooooooh! Now I get what you were trying to say for #1. I think. So, because they have smaller eyes, their field of vision is smaller, making larger creatures more obvious since they take up more of the field of vision... Right?
So everything would appear larger...Which would explain the bonus to sight.

It makes sense to me...

There are a bunch of animals (whose eyeballs are tiny) that have amazing eyesight... I doubt it's cause their eyeballs are tiny, but still... If tiny animals can evolve to have amazing eyesight, tiny humans can too.

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Ubernoob

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 04:25:50 AM »
Ooooooh! Now I get what you were trying to say for #1. I think. So, because they have smaller eyes, their field of vision is smaller, making larger creatures more obvious since they take up more of the field of vision... Right?
So everything would appear larger...Which would explain the bonus to sight.
Vision is a cone.  Size doesn't matter.  If you don't believe me take an elementary biology class (wikipedia works just as well).  Shape matters, but size matters not.
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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 02:58:49 PM »
You know, it's always annoyed me how increased size makes your weapon damage better, but not your spell damage.

Compare a Colossal creature casting fireball to a Fine one. A Colossal creature would barely be able to see the "pea-sized bead" that emerges from one of the sweat pores on his fingertip, whereas a Fine creature... just imagine a pea coming out of the fingertip of a Fine creature. :o

Wouldn't it make more sense if it was "fingertip-sized"?
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Ubernoob

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2008, 03:18:48 PM »
You know, it's always annoyed me how increased size makes your weapon damage better, but not your spell damage.

Compare a Colossal creature casting fireball to a Fine one. A Colossal creature would barely be able to see the "pea-sized bead" that emerges from one of the sweat pores on his fingertip, whereas a Fine creature... just imagine a pea coming out of the fingertip of a Fine creature. :o

Wouldn't it make more sense if it was "fingertip-sized"?
The only problem is spells like enlarge person and giant size, not to mention polymorph and shapechange.
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Bozwevial

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Re: Thoughts on size (And why it matters)
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2008, 03:31:39 PM »
You know, it's always annoyed me how increased size makes your weapon damage better, but not your spell damage.

Compare a Colossal creature casting fireball to a Fine one. A Colossal creature would barely be able to see the "pea-sized bead" that emerges from one of the sweat pores on his fingertip, whereas a Fine creature... just imagine a pea coming out of the fingertip of a Fine creature. :o

Wouldn't it make more sense if it was "fingertip-sized"?

Yes. As it stands, the larger races are more likely to dismiss magic as a soft option and bash in heads, while smaller races use magic to compensate for their weaker size.

...Theoretically, of course. It's just a thought, and there are probably campaigns out there with pixie frenzied berserkers and titan ultimate magi.

ubernoob: Exactly.