Author Topic: This Gish has too few caster levels.  (Read 5101 times)

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Littha

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 07:10:19 PM »
I would personally do number 2.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 07:16:13 PM »
Do you need caster levels or spellcaster levels?

Consider Swiftblade 9, saves a caster level.

Nytemare3701

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 07:21:00 PM »
Spellcaster levels.

 If I'm going swiftblade I'd like to stop at 4 or go all the way to 10. The 5th level ability actually hurts my blue magic.

Nytemare3701

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 07:38:58 PM »
I suppose I could do
Gemini Dancer 1/Blue Mage 3/Crusader 1/Swiftblade 2/Arcane Weapon Master 5/Spelldancer1/War Weaver5/Swiftblade+2

bearsarebrown

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 08:45:09 PM »
If you're going for power there is not much stronger then Swiftblade 9. Action economy is the best economy.

But War Weaver is strong and coupled with free metamagic extremely strong. You also won't overshadow your party nearly as much.

Unbeliever

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 02:12:00 AM »
I happen to like War Weaver gishes.  With their ability to store a lot of spells and release them as a move action (even easier with UMD/UPD and Hustle) you can make for an easy buff routine.  I've kind of grown tired of persistent spells.  Swiftblade also looks great, though I've never played one.

SorO_Lost

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 03:15:09 AM »
Arcane Swordsage was made for Swiftblade. Choose Haste to be your 3rd level spell choice at level 5 and immediately enter Swiftblade at level 6.

If you DM doesn't alter the IL to CL rate. Swiftblade works closer to a 8/10 caster progression, it's just you don't learn new spells at every level. given that it runs a level ahead of your standard Sorcerer gish to begin with. It really isn't to bad for power.

It really does take a huge hit to versatility, but trust me it's just so damn awesome to play as. Well, if you like the concept Bleach at least.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Nytemare3701

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 01:22:48 PM »
I really want to keep Blue mage, but if you can find a better level one than gemini dancer (I doubt there is) then by all means. I have to keep Arcane Weapon Master in there too, seeing as I wrote it and I'm playing the character for the express purpose of trying it out.

Ikeren

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 11:08:31 PM »
What is an arcane weapon master and why are you taking 5 levels of it?

TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2011, 12:09:22 AM »
I have an idea.
Practiced Spellcaster.
Fix-ed.
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or else you won't get anything..."


CantripN

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2011, 05:28:55 AM »
Arcane Weapon Master is plain awesome! Especially with Thunderlance (20" Reach, use CHA)! Or Moonblade (No Spellcasting)!

Anyway, if you want the most, you can get rid of Gemini Dancer and go for Monk's Belt + that feat that makes it use CHA for AC. That's one CL, right there.

Next...

JPM 2 seems a great dip for you, even if it loses a CL, for that DR 10 / Evil stance, all day. You kinda qualify already, too...

This is hard to do without Gestalt, I'll grant you. It's doable, but it's not as fun - my own Gish was made in Gestalt.

I'd go with option number 3, for you - it's not like you need most spells above level 4 or so, anyway, as a Gish - most of what you need is there, as is, especially as a Blue Mage.

[EDIT]: Have you considered squeezing in a level of Bard, and then a level of Sublime Chord? That would grant you a much higher level spell access.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2011, 05:45:29 AM by CantripN »
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Nytemare3701

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 10:59:12 AM »
Arcane Weapon Master is plain awesome! Especially with Thunderlance (20" Reach, use CHA)! Or Moonblade (No Spellcasting)!

Why thank you. I worked pretty hard on it :-)

BeholderSlayer

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 12:48:41 PM »
Since it's clear you're using homebrew, and you're taking Swiftblade anyway, this? Might not help with spellcaster levels, but it's not bad.
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Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Nytemare3701

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 03:39:42 PM »
Anyway, if you want the most, you can get rid of Gemini Dancer and go for Monk's Belt + that feat that makes it use CHA for AC. That's one CL, right there.

1 level vs 2 feats and a magic item...I'll think on it.


Since it's clear you're using homebrew, and you're taking Swiftblade anyway, this? Might not help with spellcaster levels, but it's not bad.

I like that! I was looking at a 2 level dip in the Arcane Duelist anyway, but couldn't find a good place for it.

SorO_Lost

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2011, 06:35:23 PM »
I see why you don't have caster levels.
Oooh Swiftblade! -4 CL.
Oooh JPM! -1 CL.
Oooh made up Arcane Duelist! -1 CL.
Oooh made up Gemini Dancer! -1 CL.
Oooh my made up class! -1CL.
Best advice you'll ever get is less ADHD.

Abjuration Champion 5 + Arcane Preparation + Greater Luminous Armor = +13 (armor) to AC.
Abjuration Champion 5 + Swift Action Shield = +9 (shield) to AC.
RuneStaff + Persisted Siren's Grace = <charisma mod> (deflection) to AC.
Persisted Bite of the Werebear = +7 (natural armor; enhancmenet), also gives +16 to str and +8 to con! See also it's lesser variants.
Polymorph/PoA/Shapechange: Figure +12 (natural armor; base) from one of your forms.
=51+CharismaMod AC. (also via Friendly Fire you're immune to ranged).
There, fixed your AC problem. Cost one feat and it didn't even need that.

Part of Min/Max is the Min part. You drop all the shiny shit that looks useful in order to make room for the stuff that does work.

Since you're allowed homebrew: Why the hell not ask the DM for an Arcane Swordsage that learns spells like a Blue Mage? Now you've got your Blue, your Arcane Weapon Master, running on a super-gish Swordsage platform, with the highly useful Abjuration Champion levels. All with only one CL loss, by the time you PrC out you only drop your advancement to "as slow as the Sorcerer". Hell, AWM's no spell advancement is retotaled to +0.5 anyway, you can still dip something like Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce and still learn 9th level spells by level 18. I could understand not wanting Swordsage because it's spell choice is to limited, but ignoring homebrew and several CL losing levels while complaining about CL loss? I think you need to clarify to your self what you want before asking us.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Nytemare3701

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2011, 06:44:32 PM »
I see why you don't have caster levels.
Oooh Swiftblade! -4 CL.
Oooh JPM! -1 CL.
Oooh made up Arcane Duelist! -1 CL.
Oooh made up Gemini Dancer! -1 CL.
Oooh my made up class! -1CL.
Best advice you'll ever get is less ADHD.

Abjuration Champion 5 + Arcane Preparation + Greater Luminous Armor = +13 (armor) to AC.
Abjuration Champion 5 + Swift Action Shield = +9 (shield) to AC.
RuneStaff + Persisted Siren's Grace = <charisma mod> (deflection) to AC.
Persisted Bite of the Werebear = +7 (natural armor; enhancmenet), also gives +16 to str and +8 to con! See also it's lesser variants.
Polymorph/PoA/Shapechange: Figure +12 (natural armor; base) from one of your forms.
=51+CharismaMod AC. (also via Friendly Fire you're immune to ranged).
There, fixed your AC problem. Cost one feat and it didn't even need that.

Part of Min/Max is the Min part. You drop all the shiny shit that looks useful in order to make room for the stuff that does work.

Since you're allowed homebrew: Why the hell not ask the DM for an Arcane Swordsage that learns spells like a Blue Mage? Now you've got your Blue, your Arcane Weapon Master, running on a super-gish Swordsage platform, with the highly useful Abjuration Champion levels. All with only one CL loss, by the time you PrC out you only drop your advancement to "as slow as the Sorcerer". Hell, AWM's no spell advancement is retotaled to +0.5 anyway, you can still dip something like Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce and still learn 9th level spells by level 18. I could understand not wanting Swordsage because it's spell choice is to limited, but ignoring homebrew and several CL losing levels while complaining about CL loss? I think you need to clarify to your self what you want before asking us.

That stung a bit, but I get what you are saying.

SorO_Lost

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2011, 08:56:18 PM »
That stung a bit, but I get what you are saying.
Everything I say stings a bit, ignore it and look for the what I'm trying to say. Taking CL losing classes is counter productive from what seems to be the goal of this thread.

You've got one mandatory CL loss, your class you want to use.
You want Blue Mage in theme and homebrew is open.
This seems to be the bottom line. Where to go from here?

Which base class do you want to build from? Sorcerer? Wizard? Blue Mage? Duskblade? Arcane Swordsage? Another thing to consider, given the allowance for home brew, you could even ask for a Blue Magic refit to any of those classes. Wizard can handle that though already existing rules with fifteen minute breaks between battles or Sorcerer with a day or two of retraining a spell known. It's not a stretch to ask for a minor change in the time it takes them to learn a spell they seen (provided they can said level of spell of course). A Blue Mage Swordsage sounds awesome, it would go against the school limitations noted for the Arcane Swordsage but still. Any of these classes would be suitable, Monk sure isn't.

Top gish PrCs are JPM and Abjuration Champion. AC is only 5 levels and full while JPM ranges based on how you set things up. Like if you use feats for entry and exit at the 5th level it's only one CL loss, and you have the option of another CL loss for Quickening Strike as well. Other wise, it could be up to -3 CL which is very harsh. There are other gish flavored PrCs, some Eberron mount based one that doesn't give too much, a Dragonlance one for dip for -10% ASF, Core's Eldritch Knight, etc. It's just they fall short of the other two outside of specific applications.

Sublime Chord is an excellent way to have an end game caster off a melee only base but comes into play much later in the game. Like Anything 8 / Bard 1 / Arcane Weapon Master 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Arcane Weapon Master +9. But those first eight levels really are forget able, like if they were caster based then everything it offered will be outscaled and you'll ignore it. If it was melee based, the traits will probably be used but you spent half your character's life hitting stuff and moved to casting spells after his mid-life crisis. Then levels 1~6 are spent catching up to everyone else. So I'd skip Sublime and look else where but this is still a commonly mentioned PrC and is quite powerful by level 20.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Aliek

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Re: This Gish has too few caster levels.
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2011, 01:33:55 AM »
Unless that first 8 levels are factotum levels. Then, well... You should know.

Also, as I'm a fan of this kind of setup, ????(Crusader level(s) here)/Ur-priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/??? is quite awesome. I'd say you could do some obscene lockdown along with you spellcasting by going
Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem(Lion spirit totem) Barbarian 2/Crusader(however much you want)/Free feats dips here(Psywar or fighter, mainly)/Ur-priest/RKV/???(Contemplative?). You'll have some problems with skill points for ur-priest, but it can be handled by dipping feat rogue or thug fighter maybe. Either way that probably strays too much from the main goal. My main advice is to look into ur-priest, for I usually prefer this class over sublime chord.