Author Topic: Dread Necro Tips.  (Read 7464 times)

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Deth Muncher

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Dread Necro Tips.
« on: August 02, 2008, 04:27:59 AM »
Hey guys. The whole point of this is to try to get some help from those of you who've played this class before and have some helpful data for me. I'm looking for anything from roleplay tips to item-choosing tips. Below is what I already have of my character

Lv. 10 Human NE Dread Necromancer
Str-14, Dex-15, Con-14, Int-14, Wis-15, Cha-23, with 60 HP. Feat Selection: Tomb Tainted Soul, Quicken Turning, Corpsecrafting, Destructive Retribution, Undead Leadership.

Familiar: Vargouille. (Why? Because my DM really wanted me to take it, so he offered me a permanent +1 to Cha for taking it. He also made it so that any Vargouilles spawned from my familar are under its control.)

Current posessions: BoH II (for keeping my undead in), Mithril Chain Shirt, Keen Scythe, Shortbow, 400 Arrows, HHH (for the rest of my posessions), Cloak of Cha +2, Hat of Disguise, Rod of Undead Mastery, Deadwalker Ring, 20,050GP.

I've only picked one of my Bonus Spells (Chill Touch), and I'm leaning towards having Mark of Justice being the other, but I'm not certain.

I've also read the Dread Necromancer Handbook from the WotC forums.

Cheers!

CountArioch

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 05:33:13 AM »
First off, having a familiar that creates spawn is pretty nuts.  I'm sure volumes of optimization can be written about that.

Have you also read the Revised Necromancer Handbook?

There's a lot of good advice there.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129

Quote from: K
Dread Necromancer
First Level:
This is where you have to make the big decisions in build priorities. You have to choose your skills. One of these skills is going to be Intimidate (more on that later), and if you ever want a prestige class you'll have to start working on it now (You could do worse than working towards Divine Oracle by taking Knowledge: Religion, Wild Mage by taking Spellcraft, or Mind Bender by taking social skills). Otherwise you can get pretty much anything you want. Unless you're human or a human with glowing blue eyes, you're only going to have one feat. That feat is going to be Tomb Tainted Soul, because not having that feat is unacceptable. Finally, you get to choose a martial weapon - and in all deference to the really hot Asian necromancer picture, that weapon is under no circumstances going to be an axe. You are going to have proficiency with the composite longbow.

Combat at first level for a Dread Necromancer is nasty and brutish, much like it is for a Rogue. You'll try to keep things at range as much as possible because you're soft and squishy. When it does come to melee, you're going to dish out big damage. Your Charnel Touch is a touch attack, so it is substantially more likely to land than a sword attack from a ranger of your level (they have +1 BAB on you, but how many creatures have less than a point of armor and natural armor?), and depending on your DM's reading of the ability - may do more damage. The key is whether Charnel Touch is an attack action or a standard action, it is heavily implied to be an attack action but this is unclear in the text. You can combine a Charnel Touch with a touch spell such as Chill Touch (making you do as much damage in melee as a Rogue's Sneak Attack with a longsword), but your DM may rule that you have to spend a round "powering up," so ask before you get into combat.

You're still running in there with the crappy light armor you can afford (studded leather), and 6 + Con HP, so even your high damage output shouldn't trick you into getting into melee much. Of course, any combat you survive causes you no damage, as you'll just Charnel Touch yourself back to full life during even a minute of down time. Touching yourself is a standard action, after all.

Level 2:
There are no choices to make at all once you hit level 2. All of your skills advance, and you don't have any feats or proficiencies to select.

But combat is a whole new world for you, as you now have DR 2/ Bludgeoning and Magic. By this point you've probably gotten your hands on a masterwork chain shirt, and you're what passes for a decently resilient melee combatant. Your rebuking is now powerful enough to command basic skeletons, and your BAB is still only a point behind the fighters. So you still dish out the pain like a Rogue, but now you're survivable - so run in there and start slapping people.

Level 3:
There is a very large choice at this level: your new feat. The obvious choice is to just take Arcane Disciple every feat from now until you've exhausted all the domains of your favorite god. I won't fault you for doing that, but you can also get some good effect out of Weapon Finesse (as it modifies touch attacks), and if you're thinking long term you might want to go for Mounted Combat as you will eventually be able to pull some tricks with undead warbeasts that are alarming.

Combat is pretty similar at 3rd level to 2nd, but the monsters are tougher. You won't have gotten noticeably better at melee (unless you took Weapon Finesse), but you now have the ability to pull a combat muligan - you are within 5 feet of yourself by definition, so if melee is turning against you a burst of negative energy will heal you and hurt them - that's all good.

Level 4:
Level 4 is where you start being a halfway decent caster, and your big character choice reflects that. You can dumpster dive throughout the whole of D&D and find any Necromancy spell off the Cleric or Wizard list from any book. Good choices include Lesser Shivering Touch (which can again be combined with Charnel Touch) from Frost Burn, and Faerun has a number of nice offerings such as Stone Bones, Spirit Worm, Death Armor, and Shroud of Undeath can all be pretty useful. The Spell Compendium is a good place to go shopping, but this is a very personal choice.

We're not even going to pretend that your "Mental Bastion" makes a difference, so combat is going to be livened up by your increased BAB and your second level spells. False Life is key, remember that your DR is applied before you lose temporary hit points, so you're pretty much the tank at this point.

Special Note: Once you attain 4th level, you will continue to accrue new spells known every 4 levels even if you take a +1 caster level PrC. Gaining new levels for the purpose of learning new spells is awesome for a Dread Necromancer.

Level 5:
There are no choices at 5th level, but this is where your intimidate finally pays off. A character with max ranks of Intimidate usually succeeds at intimidating things, and anything that gets into melee with you has to make a Will save or become Shaken (as written, you can jolly well just use the fear aura again and again, stacking up fear effects until your opponent becomes panicked or makes a Will Save, but we'll assume for the moment that your DM will limit you to one booga-booga a round), and if it works you can spend your action intimidating them, which stacks their Fear up to Frightened, so they lose their action running out of melee while you slap them in the back of the head. It's quite an effective "juggle" to use fighting game lingo.

Level 6:
This is a level where you get a feat, and that means that you have a lot of choices again. You could get Leadership, or Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion, or Death Blow (see below), or anything else you need to get into a PrC at level 9.

Combat doesn't change for you much from your new "ability". Scabrous Touch is pretty much crap, so it's not important that you have it (though you can combine it with your basic attack so it doesn't cost you anything). You can't use it to generate any of the good diseases like Ghoul Fever or Festering Hate unless you have a very generous DM. You're gonna throw in Blinding Sickness unless you want to try to kill an animal with Mindfire, but don't get your hopes up. Once again, your life revolves around the spells you just got. With Vampiric Touch and Death Ward, your tanking expertise is way up there.

Special Note: You can cast spells while using a Mithril Breastplate, so by now you should own one and wear it all the time.

Level 7:
You have only one choice at this level: your familiar. There are two good choices: Quasit and Ghostly Visage. The Ghostly Visage is the combat choice, because it makes you immune to mind affecting effects and uses your level as its Hit Dice to generate a save DC for a gaze attack that paralyzes your enemies. Quasit is the less-combat choice because it gives you Commune, unlimited Detect Magic, and can still hand out quite sizeable amounts of Dex damage and its 1/day fear stacks with your fear aura.

Combat has changed for you utterly. Your DR has become bigger and you have a familiar that accentuates your combat strategy greatly (either making enemies helpless as the Ghostly Visage is wont to do, or by adding Dex damage to the pile as the Quasit can).

Level 8:
Once again, you are stuck with choices. You select a new spell to go with your shiny 4th level spells. Shivering Touch is a dragon killer - 3d6 Dex damage will drop many enemies. But you're also going to probably want to de-emphasize your melee role now that you can make high quality flying mounts. Undead Mastery is high quality, because it makes your Control Undead ginormous. You also get a second Negative Energy Burst each day, but this is more for emergency healing than it is for harming enemies.

Level 9:
You now prestige class out, because there are no more good Dread Necromancer abilities for a long time.

Also in the link:  Tips on rebuking, feat selection, what kinds of monsters make good undead, and so forth.
She hasn't come to crush your bones, nor tear your flesh
She has come to steal your sanity with just one glance

Sacrapos - At First Glance, Eluveitie

Deth Muncher

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 07:39:20 AM »
First off: Yes, a Familiar that can spawn more of itself is, in fact, fairly Epic. The only minor problem is that it takes from 6-24 hours for a spawn to happen, and the signs are fairly telltale, as well as the fact that the transformation is halted by sunlight.

Second: I have in fact read K's handbook, and I wholeheartedly disagree with a good deal of it. The biggest discrepancy I have with it is the fact that it tells you to PrC out of it at level 9. What? You become a Lich at level 20! And don't bring that nonsense about...what is it, Cutserv or something like that? The way we're playing it is, should I make it to 20, I'm a Lich, end of story, good game sir.

Mister_Sinister

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 08:34:39 AM »
There is also a Dread Necromancer Handbook you can view. I would link you, but Failmin is down for 'unplanned maintenance' again.

Everything I learned about DnD I learned from Frank Trollman at The Gaming Den... but nowadays, my work space is the New DnD Wiki.

Check them both out!


Deth Muncher

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 08:42:18 AM »
I appreciate it, but as stated in the bottom of the OP, I've already read it.

AndyJames

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 10:41:02 AM »
The lich template is nothing spectacular (it is grossly overpriced). If you want most of the good stuff of being undead, be a necropolitan. You can get that as soon as level 3.

The best part of being Dread Necro is that you get to be Rainbow Servant get to play with all Cleric spells on top of your DN spells. I would PrC out of DN ASAP. I won't even bother to wait till level 9.

The biggest problem with DN is the lack of area effect spells. If you run into a mass of enemies, you tend to get into trouble. You get to raise undead, which would be nice if it weren't so expensive. Those onyxs add up fast.

I'd ask the DM if you can get an eccletic learning version of the DN (just like the Warmage one) so that you can at least grab some spells that are not on the Necromancy list like Invisibility (you don't attack, your undead do) or Fly or Haste (for all those undead). If you want to play a raise undead type of guy, I would also look into getting feats that make your undead better. Corpsecrafter (the one that gives extra damage and hp) is a good one.

Zeke

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 10:47:25 AM »
There are some bonus spells out there that specifically boost your undead. (bones of iron etc,). That might be a better way to go than another touch spell.

CountArioch

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 02:03:40 PM »
Second: I have in fact read K's handbook, and I wholeheartedly disagree with a good deal of it. The biggest discrepancy I have with it is the fact that it tells you to PrC out of it at level 9. What? You become a Lich at level 20! And don't bring that nonsense about...what is it, Cutserv or something like that? The way we're playing it is, should I make it to 20, I'm a Lich, end of story, good game sir.

Hey, I don't disagree with the idea that being a lich for free is generally awesome.  You get all the bonuses and don't have to pay the rediculous LA for being one.

However, ask yourself two questions:

1.  Is it worth it to slog through 10 levels that are worse than if I was PrC'ing the whole time?

And the big one:

2.  Will this campaign ever reach level 20?


I don't know about you guys, but in my 15 some odd years of gaming, I've never reached anywhere close to that.  Having an awesome level 20 ability isn't meaningful if you never reach level 20 in the first place.


That is the general idea behind Frank and K's reasoning behind telling you to PrC out of the class by level, because most people retire the campaign well before they reach anywhere near 20.
She hasn't come to crush your bones, nor tear your flesh
She has come to steal your sanity with just one glance

Sacrapos - At First Glance, Eluveitie

Deth Muncher

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 03:17:58 PM »
A quick side-note: My DM is very lax/dumb about many things. One of those is Material Components. So Raise Dead? Yeah. Just a spell. No need to worry about the onyxs.

As well, I really do think we're going to level 20. My DM is again dumb on this part, and instead of levelling with XP, we usually level once or twice a month. So sure, it'll take 5-10 months to get there, but I assume we will.

Also, NOT doing Necropolitan. It costs me a level, and then I have to be True Rezzed before I become a Lich, which I know my DM won't allow.

JaronK

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 07:41:50 PM »
Stay in Dread Necromancer... K is totally wrong about PrCing out.  Your 8th level ability is based on class level, not character level, so you really want to stay in it to max out the size (in HD) of your minions. 

There's a flaw I noted in the Min/Max boards that's awesome for Dread Necromancers... you might want to check there.

Normally, Ghostly Visages are by far the best familiars, though for you that may now be different.  Remember, the save DC of their gaze attack is based on their HD, which is equal to your HD.

Black Sand, Ghoul Glyph, and Kelgor's Grave Mist are the top choices for your first advanced learning.  Black Sand is frikkin' AWESOME.

Sickening Grasp, Corpse Crafter, Imperious Command, and Tomb Tainted Soul are the big deal feats for Dread Necromancers.  The skill trick Never Outnumbered is also cool.   Intimidate everyone to cowering, then fear pulse to make it stick... you just took out an entire encounter without wasting any spells.

JaronK

Deth Muncher

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 02:09:07 AM »
The operative thing with your flaw, though, is that you need Con 13. Which I lack. And under any other circumstances, I'd have picked the Visage over the Vargouille, but a free 1 Cha and getting more Vargouilles under my control is kinda nifty.

I might look into Black Sand, considering it is, in fact, a Sandstorm spell.

Hazren

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 05:49:52 PM »
Would you consider a dip into Dread Witch? That var could come in very handy for augmenting the fear spells and features. See how the DM would rule on where Paralysed with fear fits into the shaken, frightened, panicked scale?

At lvl 14 DN you should have a base fort save of +4 with an addition of Mental Bastion of +4 to net you +8 before you add Con. With a Con of 16 you only fail on a 1.
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Deth Muncher

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 07:15:09 PM »
Well, as luck would have it, the campaign got killed and is being revamped into a MTG-Based campaign with new characters. So all this work? Pointless.

CountArioch

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2008, 03:01:18 AM »
I knew it wasn't going to reach 20th level.   :smirk

But in all seriousness, it sucks when that happens.  I was writing a viking campaign a few years back, and I had to end it because only one person out of 5 could be arsed to make a character.
She hasn't come to crush your bones, nor tear your flesh
She has come to steal your sanity with just one glance

Sacrapos - At First Glance, Eluveitie

Hazren

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Re: Dread Necro Tips.
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2008, 11:40:34 AM »
It  worked out well for me. The thought exercise on improving the Dread Necro with Var familiar was one I hadn't done.:)

Always learning. ;)
"My solution way too often is to press the red button and see the world burn, which brings us back to the fiery pits of Hell..."
Tshern