Author Topic: Maximizing Initiative  (Read 2976 times)

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Jackinthegreen

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Maximizing Initiative
« on: October 17, 2011, 02:30:53 AM »
This is a possibly amusing build I threw together over the past couple hours.  It achieves an Initiative modifier in the 50's and higher, but there are some possible rule twists needed to achieve this feat.

1: A Factotum's Cunning Strike counts as Sneak Attack for prestige qualifications.  Nowhere in the rules does it say it can't be used as such.
2: Cunning Strike can be stacked up to at least 2d6.  Most people agree that only getting a max of 1d6 is BS, especially on a single attack.
3: The class features of untyped Intellect to initiative stack.  You'll see what I mean with the build.
4: Trapsmith's Haste counts for Swiftblade entry.  The authors themselves noted they'd have rewritten Swiftblade's "must have used every 3rd level spell slot on Haste" in lieu of the Trapsmith.

Now for the build:

Race: Human
Alignment: Any nonlawful
Deity: Any
Classes: Factotum 5/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 4/Bayushi Deceiver 2/Exemplar 8.

28-point buy
Starting Ability Scores: STR [10], DEX [13], CON [10], INT [18], WIS [10], CHA [9]   Dex is for the prereq Dodge and Int is for everything else.  Int will go up to 23 with levels, 28 with a Tome, and 34 with a Headband of Intellect for a +12 Intelligence score.

Feats:
Human: Improved Initiative
1st: Dodge
3rd: Mobility
6th: Skill Focus (any)
9th-18th: Any.  Might as well go with FoI, Knowledge Devotion, etc.  Travel Devotion would work well with the overall design.

Needed skills:
Trapsmith: Craft: Trapmaking 8 ranks, Disable Device 8 ranks, Open Lock 5 ranks, Search 8 ranks.
Swiftblade: Concentration 6 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks
Buyashi Deceiver: Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks
Exemplar: Diplomacy 6 ranks, any other skill 13 ranks

All of the 8 and under skills can be had by a 5th level Factotum with more skills to spare.  The Exemplar's 13 ranks can be in any skill besides Diplomacy.

Now for why this build gets a 40+ Initiative modifier:
Dexterity to initiative: +1
Improved Initiative: +4
Factotum 3: Brains Over Brawn grants Intelligence to all Strength and Dexterity checks, including initiative. +12 at 20th level.
Swiftblade 4: Arcane Reflexes grants a competence bonus on initiative rolls equal to the arcane spellcasting ability modifier. That's Int, for another +12.
Buyashi Deceiver: Strike First, Strike Last means a Bayushi deceiver of at least 2nd level adds his intelligence modifier to his initiative checks. +12 again.
Exemplar 8: Intellectual Agility lets an Exemplar add his Intelligence bonus to initiative checks and Reflex saves. +12 yet again.

With only class skills and two items, this character has +53 to his initiative checks.  Add in an Eager Warning weapon for +7. We're at an even 60 now.  Top it off with Nerveskitter's +5 for +65 to initiative.  Primal Senses wouldn't work because it's a +5 competence bonus, which is overwritten by Swiftblade's bonus.

Just for the heck of it, here's total BAB, base saves, and base skill points.  I'm not including stat gains from the Tome of Clear Thought into the skill points since it's already kinda silly being able to max 12 skills by level 20.
Factotum 1:  0/ F0/R2/W0 44SkP
Factotum 2:  1/ F0/R3/W0 55SkP
Factotum 3:  2/ F1/R3/W1 66SkP
Factotum 4:  3/ F1/R4/W1 77SkP
Factotum 5:  3/ F1/R4/W1 88SkP
Trapsmith 1:  3/ F1/R6/W1 99SkP
Swiftblade 1: 4/ F1/R8/W3 108SkP
Swiftblade 2: 5/ F1/R9/W4 118SkP (Intellect bump to skills)
Swiftblade 3: 6/ F2/R9/W4 128SkP
Swiftblade 4: 7/ F2/R10/W5 138SkP
Buyashi D 1:  8/ F4/R12/W5 150SkP
Buyashi D 2:  9/ F5/R13/W5 162SkP
Exemplar 1:   9/ F5/R13/W7 176SkP
Exemplar 2:   10/ F5/R13/W8 190SkP
Exemplar 3:   11/ F6/R14/W8 204SkP
Exemplar 4:   12/ F6/R14/W8 219SkP (Int SkP bump)
Exemplar 5:   12/ F6/R14/W8 234SkP
Exemplar 6:   13/ F7/R15/W9 249SkP
Exemplar 7:   14/ F7/R15/W9 264SkP
Exemplar 8:   15/ F7/R15/W10 279SkP

Using partial BAB combination, BAB would go up to +16 and allow for the extra iterative.  Thanks to base Dex and the Exemplar's Intellectual Agility, he's now at +28 to Reflex saves.  Ring of Evasion, anyone?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 02:33:51 AM by Jackinthegreen »

altpersona

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 02:43:15 AM »
your init is far to high.

its nice for theoretical work, but for practicality... someone did a chart once.. its here somewhere.

i think +9 ish is the beginning of the end of the init war, except for init circumventions like celerity and dire tortoise.
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Jackinthegreen

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 02:54:43 AM »
your init is far to high.

its nice for theoretical work, but for practicality... someone did a chart once.. its here somewhere.

i think +9 ish is the beginning of the end of the init war, except for init circumventions like celerity and dire tortoise.

I never said it was practical; Only possibly amusing.  The good news is the build also does skill monkey extremely well.

nijineko

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 03:45:43 AM »
not bad. great for iaijutsu, too.
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Andion Isurand

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 06:08:16 AM »
Don't forget the Silthilar grafts (LoM) for Tendons and the Flexible Spine to gain +5 to Initiative while not polymorphed.

Bit pricey, but there if you want them.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 06:12:29 AM by Andion Isurand »

SorO_Lost

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 06:12:57 AM »
its nice for theoretical work, but for practicality... someone did a chart once.. its here somewhere.
Here.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 04:10:06 PM by SorO_Lost »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

zook1shoe

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2011, 04:05:46 PM »
Tags?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2011, 04:07:06 PM »
You might find some useful stuff in here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2011, 04:10:16 PM »
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Tr011

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 06:30:17 PM »
i think +9 ish is the beginning of the end of the init war, except for init circumventions like celerity and dire tortoise.
That's not true. +9 is what Improved Ini and 20 Dex grant. So, it's a possibility for any NPC with "high initiative" (i.e. enemy rogues/assassins/casters/etc.). You need your initiative at 5 higher than your opponent's ini to have good chances for winning initiative. So imo, at +14 is the start of the end (getting a bit higher when reaching higher levels).

/edit: Look at the examples here, IIRC they get by far higher, so you should maybe add some stuff of them
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 06:33:19 PM by Tr011 »

The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 06:38:48 PM »
Needs more UA character trait: Aggressive for untyped +2 init.

EDIT: already mentioned in the link a couple of posts back, so nevermind.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 06:42:06 PM by The_Laughing_Man »

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 06:54:05 PM »
how about an other sources option. There was the Ninja from the Rokugan book and a feat in there for the scorpion clan. Both of which let you add a bonus to init, i think your Int mod.
if you really want to leave D&D, but stay in d20 there are 2 from the Wheel of Time d20 setting that are background feats, each adding +2 init.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 06:55:46 PM »
If you're going to start suggesting initiative boosts, skip the one I linked. I don't exactly support my post there per say and PhaedrusXY's thread is both newer and has more listings.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Nachofan99

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 06:59:14 PM »
1 level of Fighter with Drow Hit and Run variant gets a Bonus Feat (Improved Initiative) and +2 untyped mod to initiative.  Always a pretty sweet 1 level dip for +6 initiative!

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 07:04:12 PM »
If you're going to start suggesting initiative boosts, skip the one I linked. I don't exactly support my post there per say and PhaedrusXY's thread is both newer and has more listings.
I'm not really updating it anymore either, though. Past a certain point it's like "What's the point, again?" That point can basically be reached by casting both Sign and Nerveskitter, and having both Warning + Eager weapons (armor spikes, etc).

So a guy with a quarterstaff that's a +2 equivalent on each end, with two wand chambers and the ability to hit UMD 20 can have all of that fairly cheaply.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Nachofan99

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2011, 07:13:35 PM »
I agree with Phaedrus.  I mean it's possible to cast Sign from Miniatures Handbook and not roll your d20; having an auto-20 on Iniative is really more than enough even without other mods to beat the vast majority of everything in the game.  Still it's neat to know you could have pontentially ridiculous mods, 50-60+ initiative is neat.

X-Codes

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 07:30:48 PM »
your init is far to high.
<img src=hermancain.gif>

i think +9 ish is the beginning of the end of the init war, except for init circumventions like celerity and dire tortoise.
That's not true. +9 is what Improved Ini and 20 Dex grant. So, it's a possibility for any NPC with "high initiative" (i.e. enemy rogues/assassins/casters/etc.). You need your initiative at 5 higher than your opponent's ini to have good chances for winning initiative. So imo, at +14 is the start of the end (getting a bit higher when reaching higher levels).

/edit: Look at the examples here, IIRC they get by far higher, so you should maybe add some stuff of them
I would consider this only somewhat true.  A +9 Initiative will enable you to go before just about everything you'll face.  A +14 will give you an edge against common initiative monkeys.  Of course, if you're facing optimized, spellcasting opponents then you want something in the 20's to be sure.

So yeah, it depends on the game you're playing more than anything else.

altpersona

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Re: Maximizing Initiative
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2011, 07:53:12 PM »
yes, +9 is not perfect.

especially since +11 is the better number.

the chart is only vs MM entries i believe. once PC's and such come into it, then all bets are off.

its better to not have to roll at all of course. we have several ways of doing that..
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.