Author Topic: Help with a Bard/Totemist please  (Read 5298 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« on: October 16, 2011, 01:13:58 PM »
Recently started a campaign that's some sort of 3.5/PF mix (DM allows material from both and sort of cherry-picks mechanics he likes best).  The character is already started, so I'll give a level 1 snapshot before asking questions.

Bard 1
Azurin Half-Gloura*
CG

Abilities
STR 13
DEX 18
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 20

(yes, DM used a very generous rolling system)

*Half-Gloura is a non-LA template my DM created based on the fey creature of the same name.  It's a template that add benefits as the character levels up.  Important stuff about it (mind you not all this at level 1):
  • +2 CHA, +2 DEX, -2 STR, -2 WIS
  • Darkvision (forget exactly how much)
  • Unearthly grace.  Ya I know, waaaay too good, but I warned the DM and he seems up to the challenge of strong PCs.
  • DR/cold iron

Feats: Cobalt Inspiration*, Dragontouched, Extra Music
Flaw: Directionless (means I'm always lost, but also gives 1 CON besides the extra feat)

*New custom feat I created.
Cobalt Inspiration
You can channel incarnum to enhance your inspire courage ability. When you do so, any instrument used during the performance (or your mouth if singing) gives off a blue glow.
Prerequisites: Con 13, inspire courage class feature
Benefit: Once per day you can invest essentia into this feat. While your inspire courage is active, the bonus it confers is increase by 1 for each point of essentia invested. Once the amount of essentia is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours. If an exception modifies the essentia invested in this feat, the benefit of inspire courage is adjusted appropriately, even if it is already active. Each meldshaper level you gain grants you an addition use of inspire courage each day. You gain 1 point of essentia.
Special: This feat replaces the class-based progression inspire courage would normally gain past its initial +1 bonus. Inspire courage may still benefit from other sources that increase its effectiveness.

Future Plans: Next two levels will be totemist to get the totem binds. Then two more bard levels, using the precedent from Eberron to swap out Inspire Competence for Dragonfire Inspiration (DM is cool with this).  Heading into my custom PrC, the Totem Chanter, as soon as I qualify.  (Speaking of which, feel free to add thoughts about that PrC if you read it, even though that isn't exactly the point of this thread).

My big question is what combat role should this guy fill?  Right now I'm looking at two options.

1) Ranged: Bind Manticore Belt to totem chakra and go to town, letting dragonfire inspiration make up for the normally low damage of each attack.  The strength of this choice is that ranged combat can be more manageable and with an eventual source of flight (pegasus cloak shoulder bind?), becomes a great harrier type.  I imagine a good 3rd level feat would be Expand Soulmeld capacity, which would mean 3 attacks at 3rd and 4 when I reach 6th. 

The problem with this is the often complained about fact that the belt doesn't indicate that you get a natural attack, which makes it tricky to really enhance attacks.  Also the number of attacks is slower in coming that option 2.  Would shape soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar Chaotic) be a viable way to help out my ranged attacks, or does that cost me too much?

2) Melee: Bind Landshark boots (or Girallon Arms) to totem and go to town.  This time we see 4 attacks at 3rd lvl, but either with a -5 penalty to 3 of them (girallon) or being forced to move and make a DC 20 jump check first (landshark).  Either way, I would say Snowflake Wardance becomes a necessity if I go this route.  The benefit of this option is that I can get CHA to attack and eventually damage with gauntlets of heartfelt blows, plus its clear I can upgrade my natural weapons with things like the Savage Species necklace.  Also additional attacks become possible in melee.

The down sides are that melee can be a bit more restricting depending on the encounter.  Plus if I use landshark I have to move and if I use Girallon I have significant penalties early on.

_________________

TL;DR version: For a CHA/DEX/CON focussed Bard/Totemist multiclass, should I be optimizing for ranged with the manticore belt, or melee with landshark boots or girallon arms?  Thanks for any help.

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2011, 01:55:37 PM »
I really like your character concept.

Girallon Arms - Your Inspiration and any invested essentia will help make up for the -5 of secondary attacks. It's a feat investment to reduce this to -2, and a 2-feat investment to negate it entirely. Requires Weapon Finesse for your best possible attack bonus, but I'm not sure you're actually injured by only getting half your strength to each, until 4th level. Easy on your actions, you don't suffer much from Inspiring first and letting your foes close.

Landshark Boots -Jump checks have some great synergy with feats, if you glance over at Hood (dragoon) building - if you've got the feats to spare. You get the claws as primary attacks by default, potentially freeing up feats compared to the Girallon arms, and benefiting you when your strength increases. Still wants Weapon Finesse and Snowflake Wardance for best possible attack bonus - but you get a very nice Pounce, and since it makes you focus on mobility you'll find the battlefield relatively opened up. Pegasus Cloak should combine well with this one. You qualify for Power Attack so you can use attack bonus overkill to proper advantage if you'd like.

Manticore Belt - Very nice thrown-weapon equivalent, standard action full attack at full attack bonus, and you don't even have to take Weapon Finesse for that attack bonus! The main problem is how difficult to enhance it is. Benefits are you can shoot at people and run/fly -away-, keeping your buffing bardy self out of the front lines. If you can possibly get your Dragonfire Inspiration to do sonic damage I'd very much like this. If you can manage to find a way to get Precise put on it (your DM seems flexible) you can be extremely helpful with ranged support without any feat investment.

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2011, 02:31:48 PM »
Thank you for the feedback.

You pretty much summed up the pro/cons of each path.  The melee path offers more immediate gratification, but requires more feats and has the potential drawback of being walloped by my enemies.  The ranged path might be a bit safer and potentially take less feats, but will offer a slower progression of attacks and makes it harder to upgrade those attacks.

Another thing to note is ability scores.  If I go melee I don't have to worry about anything but CHA/CON.  Ranged means my attacks are keyed off DEX, so I'll have to at least give it some attention.

I guess my decision will ultimately come down to discussing how my DM wants to treat the attack from Manticore Belt.  If he agrees that we can treat it as a natural attack and thus enhance it with the Savage Species necklace (hello splitting property  :D ), then I'll be inclined to go that route and play a back line character.


Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2011, 02:37:10 PM »
Considering you've already got an 18 Dex, utilizing it shouldn't be all that terribly taxing. xD

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2011, 05:41:25 PM »
Considering you've already got an 18 Dex, utilizing it shouldn't be all that terribly taxing. xD

No, I'm obviously set up pretty well in that regard.  I just mean down the road as far as itemization and focussing on stats.  If I go melee I could eventually have attack, damage, AC, and saves all based on that one stat, which allows me to focus almost exclusively on it.

I'm still set up fine to be a ranged combatant, it's just that down the road my hit will be lower and I'll need to focus on DEX more than I would have to otherwise.

CantripN

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
  • Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating
    • Cantrip, Gestalt Gish
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 05:49:45 PM »
As far as I know, Natural Weapons gain the full benefit from the Slippers of Battledancing, so why bother with yet more DEX? I'm quite sure your DM will rule it is a Natural Weapon, since it is.

Not that you can miss with such a great Inspire Courage.

Besides, you don't really have to choose, being able to change binds daily...
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 07:22:10 PM »
As far as I know, Natural Weapons gain the full benefit from the Slippers of Battledancing, so why bother with yet more DEX? I'm quite sure your DM will rule it is a Natural Weapon, since it is.

Not that you can miss with such a great Inspire Courage.

Besides, you don't really have to choose, being able to change binds daily...

Well two things.

1) I won't be getting the bonus to hit from inspire courage, since I'm planning to use Dragonfire Inspiration.  This seems especially key for a manticore focussed build as it's hard to amp up dmg on those attacks.

2) Yes a great thing about Incarnum is being able to switch from day to day and I will certainly do that when I have reason to, but the focus here is on optimizing for a particular role which will be my default.  Since things like feats are a part of this and can't be changed like soulmeld selection can, I'm inevitably going to be better at some things than other (for instance snowflake wardance will be wasted when I decide to fill the ranged combatant role).

Thanks for the idea regarding slippers, forgot about those.

Edit: I knew about the slippers, but I guess I never read them closely enough to see that the explicitly work with ranged attacks.  Amazing synergy here with manticore obviously because the attack is a standard action, leaving you free to move.  Pretty much gives all the benefits of snowflake wardance+gauntlets of heartfelt blows would for melee, but without costing a feat.  Granted if I do go melee snowflake would stack since slippers replace strength rather than adding to it, but either way this item alone truly leaves both options open for my bard.  Thanks again.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:44:19 PM by gabrion »

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 07:53:55 PM »
Just remember to pair it with Landshark Boots, not Girallon Arms!  :D

CantripN

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
  • Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating
    • Cantrip, Gestalt Gish
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 08:56:52 PM »
You can use both types of music at once. Just start one, and then the other, the next round. Effect persist, remember?

And since you maintain the first "forever", you only ever spend the first round doing that.

Why no stuff like Inspire Greatness, etc, on that PrC? Have it advance Bardic Music fully, at the least, if not spellcasting (and why not, it's not like it's any better than Soul Caster and it's kin).
Same thing about Chakras open, etc.

I do like the class. It has a lot of potential, and looks darned powerful, especially with trickery to boost Essentia to crazy levels.
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2011, 10:28:22 PM »
You can use both types of music at once. Just start one, and then the other, the next round. Effect persist, remember?

And since you maintain the first "forever", you only ever spend the first round doing that.

I'm not sure what you mean by effect persists.  I know it lasts for five rounds after stopping playing, but given it takes a standard round to start, we're looking at two rounds of starting music for a limited pay off.  Or are you suggesting starting a second performance while still maintaining the first? If so this is a rules interpretation I'm not familiar with (and which seems sketchy considering the PrCs that explicitly allow two musical abilities at once).

As far as the time it takes, finding a way to make it swift or something wouldn't help either since I'll want to use my swift action to cast inspirational boost.

Quote
Why no stuff like Inspire Greatness, etc, on that PrC? Have it advance Bardic Music fully, at the least, if not spellcasting (and why not, it's not like it's any better than Soul Caster and it's kin).
Same thing about Chakras open, etc.

Well I've struggled a lot with balancing the PrC and it's sort of a work in progress, at least till I reach the level where I can use it.  So thanks for the feedback.  As for progressing songs, given the level you can enter, I think this PrC gives a lot and I was frankly afraid to add more.  I look at the inspirational boosts as better than the normal bard's music progression (since they're powerful riders on an already good effect).  That plus getting nine meldshaper levels makes this potent.

As far as chakras, you may have missed it because they aren't in the chart, but they progress with meldshaper levels (unlike prcs in MoI).  I personally thought it silly to have chakra openings as a class feature at a particular level, as it forces a character to choose between taking a fifth level of Totemist and obviating the benefit of a PrC that opens hands/feet/crown, or delaying access to them altogether.  So I made them a part of meldshaper advancement, which I think makes more sense.

Quote
I do like the class. It has a lot of potential, and looks darned powerful, especially with trickery to boost Essentia to crazy levels.

Thanks again for taking the time to look.  I personally think it will be a lot of fun to play.  I'm happy with what I came up with, but still have time to tweak it.  One thing I'm considering is removing the 10th level ability to add two inspirational boosts to a song and instead adding in earlier a Seeker of the Songesque ability to start two songs at once.  This would allow one inspire courage with dragonfire inspiration and a particular inspirational boost and a regular inspire courage with a different boost to be started at the same time.  This would be a power boost, but I still don't think it would be over the top (especially if the bard is helping out the non-casters, who are in a lower league than their spell casting brethren).

Anyway, all suggestions still welcome and I appreciate the feedback so far.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 04:18:41 AM »
Thing is, in 3.5 bardic music has no time limit. Once you start you can keep it up indefinitely; you just have to spend a free action each round using your perform skill.

So you keep your bardic music up until you hit the first round of combat, then let it go, start up a new one, and let them overlap for as long as you can optimize for.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 11:01:41 AM »
Thing is, in 3.5 bardic music has no time limit. Once you start you can keep it up indefinitely; you just have to spend a free action each round using your perform skill.

So you keep your bardic music up until you hit the first round of combat, then let it go, start up a new one, and let them overlap for as long as you can optimize for.

Ah I see what you mean. At the very least this method leaves 5 rounds of overlap from the point where I drop the first song and start the second. 

I'll have to see how my DM feels about this.  He has no problem with us creating strong characters, but he's also pretty into roleplay. I see how this works mechanically, but I don't want the DM getting the impression that I've gone from min/maxing to exploiting the system.

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 11:26:50 AM »
Isn't there a weapon enchancement (harmonizing?) that boosts the 5 rounds thing to a few minutes?
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 11:27:39 AM »
Thing is, in 3.5 bardic music has no time limit. Once you start you can keep it up indefinitely; you just have to spend a free action each round using your perform skill.

So you keep your bardic music up until you hit the first round of combat, then let it go, start up a new one, and let them overlap for as long as you can optimize for.

Ah I see what you mean. At the very least this method leaves 5 rounds of overlap from the point where I drop the first song and start the second. 

I'll have to see how my DM feels about this.  He has no problem with us creating strong characters, but he's also pretty into roleplay. I see how this works mechanically, but I don't want the DM getting the impression that I've gone from min/maxing to exploiting the system.

There are roleplay disadvantages to performing constantly, but sometimes it also makes more sense.

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2011, 03:45:13 PM »
So I looked into some of the hood/dragoon building and while I obviously won't be making a full dragoon, there's some good stuff from there that would work well with landshark boots.  I'm not sure how to make it work though.

Say I talked my DM into letting me replace my extra music feat at level one with Battle Jump from Unapproachable East.  Several questions:

1) When it applies, does would the feat give double damage to all attacks made with landshark boots, or just one?

2) Looks like I need to made a DC 40 jump to get the 10 foot vertical to use it against medium targets.  Any advice doing this, or is it just going to be a matter of leveling up enough to get gear and such?  With a point of essentia in landshark and a point in Pegasus cloak I see a +10 early on, obviously can get a +2 synergy and ranks too, but my STR is hurting.  Once I can fly it should be easy to drop on enemies, buy can I do that before binding Pegasus cloak to shoulders?

3) Speaking of flying, even if I find a way I have trouble understanding how that affects landshark boots.  They require a jump check as part of movement, how does that interact with flight?  Do I have to start on the ground, make a jump check, then fly 10ft up and allow myself to drop (this assuming the jump check doesn't make 40 or more)?  Can I even do that?

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2011, 09:13:55 PM »
You could always play a CN (Crazy Nutcase) bard and have him mutter to himself all the time using Perform: Oratory. :D
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 10:41:16 PM »
New info: DM ruled that the attacks from belt of the manticore will be treated as natural attacks.  This makes me much more tempted to make that my focus as it means I can upgrade it (potentially even adding "splitting").  Thoughts?

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2011, 11:29:30 PM »
I'd say go for it.

gabrion

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Email
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2011, 01:38:48 PM »
I'd say go for it.

Yep, think this is what I'm gonna do.  Granted 4 attacks at lvl 3 might be more gratifying, but this way will start a bit weaker and allow me to progress.  This is probably a good thing as the other players range from one other guy who's an optimizer to a few who don't seem to optimize much.  Snowflake wardance with four attacks at level 3 might outshine some of the martial melees and leave them feeling inadequate.  A ranged attacker seems less likely to upset the balance.  So going forward...

Level 1 (bard): already done, but trying to swing retraining to swap out extra music for something else.  Thinking Shape Soulmeld (sighting gloves).  This seems strictly better than taking precise shot once I can bind it, but is it worth a feat slot?

Level 2 (totemist): Fairly mundane level as I'm still unable to bind.  Still, pick up useful soulmelds.

Level 3 (totemist): Totem bind manticore belt and pick up the expand soulmeld capacity feat for it, for 3 attacks:

Level 4 (bard): Nothing huge, but pick up Inspirational Boost spell.

Level 5 (bard): Sub bard's inspire competence for DFI, getting +3d6 dmg (or 4d6 if I've picked up a badge).

Level 6 (???): Bard level would open Obtain Familiar without needing practiced spellcaster, but delay opening other chakras compared to a totemist level.  Possibly extra essentia from feat?  Either way 4th attack comes from essentia capacity increase.

Level 7 (totem chanter): +1 to inspire courage from totem chant (means +1d6 dmg from DFI).

Level 8: Not much exciting

Level 9: If I got a familiar, pick up the feat that let's them benefit from my soulmelds, effectively doubling the attacks from manticore belt.

That's what I have for now.  Either way a few key items will be slippers of battledancing and necklace of natural attacks.  Anything I'm missing?

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Help with a Bard/Totemist please
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2011, 01:50:17 PM »
Well, by the time you're able to retrain for and bind Sighting Gloves you'll be decently high ECL; and just Necklace of Natural Attack-ing the Precise enhancement onto your spikes may be affordable. Sighting Gloves would likely definitely be worth the feat slot A. if you don't want to spend that money, B. you can afford to invest some essentia into them, and C. you can bind them. Precise Shot is pretty important for melee not messing you up so getting it with only one feat is certainly better than with 2. And the damage boost does not hurt you at all.