Generic Spellcaster vs Sorcerer

[OblivionSmurf83]

Assuming you had a game where you could actually pick, why on earth would you ever choose the latter?


Bonus question: Is a Generic Spellcaster a tier 2, or tier 1 character. Does their tier change over the course of their progression?

Bonus bonus question: Is there any source (I'm thinking Dragon Magazine or the like) that gives extra class features for generic characters?

[Flay Crimsonwind]

What the hell's a generic spellcaster?

Ah, UA, nvm. Well...... Yeah I got nothing. I suppose they thought the balancing factor was the barely poorer skills.

Also, never really look at the generic classes, to be honest. So probably ignorance of the one is some of it. Another is DMs may not allow something that has sorc casting to have access to every Sorc/Wiz, Druid, and Cleric spell in existence, with their choice of casting stat. I mean, technically, sorcs get one more spell per day, but.... meh....

[Littha]

The main point here I feel is that the generic classes are specifically never to be used alongside the normal ones...

[AriasDerros]

The main point here I feel is that the generic classes are specifically never to be used alongside the normal ones...

+1. This is an Apples to Peanut thing right here.

Your question reads the same to me as the same as "My group is starting a 4th edition D&D game next week, and I'm wondering whether I should play a Gangrel or Adepta Sororitas?"

So, no. There is no reason to choose Sorc over generic (excusing dragonblood stuff that specifies Sorc) because generic is meant to be all of the casters in one.

Tier 1. Remember, the generic caster isn't a step up from the T2 casters, or a step sideways for the T1, he is a step down from the T0 Artificer. Because the generic has all spells on it's class list, even with limited spells known / a day, he basically has UMD infinite.

And before you argue that it ins't UMD infinite because you must choose arcane or divine, in a world with the generic, you could find a scroll / wand / staff with any spell of either casting type, because there would be another generic casting the same way as you with that spell as a known spell.

[veekie]

Your question reads the same to me as the same as "My group is starting a 4th edition D&D game next week, and I'm wondering whether I should play a Gangrel or Adepta Sororitas?"

Highly quotable this.

[awaken DM golem]

Generic Expert is rather good, except missing the obvious Trapfinding at level 1.
Getting it a level 2 with the Trap Sense combo is very good for that specific level.

Generic Warrior is better than the Fighter ; hangs around longer.
Suffers the same problems of any frontliner-ish class.
But hey look ... UMD solves lots of things.

These combo in to the Generic Caster,
with superior combos to some of the normal base classes.

Divine Generic Spellcaster with delayed Turn Undead and a DMM set-up.
Very juicy right there.

Arcane Generic Spellcaster with GWar 1 dip, into Eldritch Knight PrC.

Arcane 1 / Divine 1 / Warrior 2 / Expert 2 = most frontloaded g-feats
maybe ... Expert +2 depending on what you want / Warrior +X

[Nunkuruji]

Generic Spellcaster is actually very interesting/easy to use for entering prestige classes that typically have two different classes class features as prerequisites, as the Bonus Feats allow you to pick up such things as Evasion, Sneak Attack, Turn Undead, etc. The same goes for cross class skills, as you can choose any four.

ex. Spellcaster/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper

very simple

[X-Codes]

Generic Spellcaster is actually very interesting/easy to use for entering prestige classes that typically have two different classes class features as prerequisites, as the Bonus Feats allow you to pick up such things as Evasion, Sneak Attack, Turn Undead, etc. The same goes for cross class skills, as you can choose any four.

ex. Spellcaster/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper

very simple

That's about the extent of it's advantage, though.  Generic spellcasters and sorcerers have the exact same opportunity cost to pick up any single awesome spell, so when it comes to their best feature it's still a wash.

Generic Spellcasters are probably slightly better overall than Sorcerers, but as someone else said they're really not meant to be played side-by-side.

[oslecamo]

Your question reads the same to me as the same as "My group is starting a 4th edition D&D game next week, and I'm wondering whether I should play a Gangrel or Adepta Sororitas?"

Highly quotable this.

Is a perfect valid question. In this 4e game the party included a Touhou mage, a melee magic girl and a 40K primarch.

[Littha]

Generic Spellcaster is actually very interesting/easy to use for entering prestige classes that typically have two different classes class features as prerequisites, as the Bonus Feats allow you to pick up such things as Evasion, Sneak Attack, Turn Undead, etc. The same goes for cross class skills, as you can choose any four.

ex. Spellcaster/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper

very simple

Too bad bardic music isn't on the bonus list
Spellcaster(arcane)/Spellcaster(Divine)/Focculcian Lyrist
Would be awesome...

[Nunkuruji]

Generic Spellcaster is actually very interesting/easy to use for entering prestige classes that typically have two different classes class features as prerequisites, as the Bonus Feats allow you to pick up such things as Evasion, Sneak Attack, Turn Undead, etc. The same goes for cross class skills, as you can choose any four.

ex. Spellcaster/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper

very simple

Too bad bardic music isn't on the bonus list
Spellcaster(arcane)/Spellcaster(Divine)/Focculcian Lyrist
Would be awesome...

"You can't recreate all of the standard character classes with these generic versions, particularly classes with complicated, unique, or specialized features such as bardic music, a wizard's familiar, or a druid's wild shape ability. If your game master allows it, you might be able to select other class features in place of one or more feats. "

Perhaps, with DM fiat.

I don't think it's of great value for theurge PrCs. You already have all spell lists at your fingertips, and can UMD for a chosen skill.

Blackflame Zealot, Daggerspell Mage and Arcane Archer I think become easier as well, IIRC
Some other odd things, like being able to qualify for Effigy Master as a divine spellcaster.

[Littha]

I don't think it's of great value for theurge PrCs. You already have all spell lists at your fingertips, and can UMD for a chosen skill.

Who doesn't want dual 9s and 15 BAB at the same time? Possibly even get your 4th attack depending on the prestige classes you get in before Lyrist.

[Nunkuruji]

I don't think it's of great value for theurge PrCs. You already have all spell lists at your fingertips, and can UMD for a chosen skill.

Who doesn't want dual 9s and 15 BAB at the same time? Possibly even get your 4th attack depending on the prestige classes you get in before Lyrist.

You can haz Divine Power, regardless of arc/div choice.
You can PrC into things that give you better economy for your actions.
The benefit of theurge is generally expanded resources in terms of spell slots and spell access.

/shrug

[Littha]

Oh I know, I have an unnatural fondness for Gishes unfortunately.

[awaken DM golem]

Oh. So ...

Divine 4 / Arcane 1 with Precocious Apprentice / MT 10 / divine PrC X
(or similar)

[juton]

Generic Spellcasters are not tier 1. By the definition of tier 1 they are not tier 1. Think about it, a Sorcerer gets access to way more cool spells than they can ever learn, giving them a larger pool of spells to pick from isn't going to be as big of a powerup as just letting them learn more spells. Which is what really differentiates a Wizard from a Sorcerer (T1 & T2), the spells known.

Having played a few of these, they are good, better than a Sorcerer but not as good as a Cleric or a Druid. You can't really recreate either of those with the generic classes. At higher levels generic casters just don't bring as much to the table as a Wizard either. The one advantage Sorcerers had over generic casters in our group is that they could multiclass with the other normal base classes, so in certain cases some builds are easier to make work with a Sorcerer.

With respect to the other generic classes, generic warrior is a lot better than a fighter since you can choose meaningful class features, and the class skills you actually want. Generic expert may be a bit worse than a straight rogue, you can get all the rogue's class features in theory, in practice you don't have enough feat slots to do so.

[OblivionSmurf83]

What about levels 18-20, when a Generic spellcaster gains access to Miracle and, through it, Psychic Reformation?

[X-Codes]

What about levels 18-20, when a Generic spellcaster gains access to Miracle and, through it, Psychic Reformation?

The tiers consider, primarily, levels 5-15 and nothing higher or lower.  Also, by Psi/Magic Transparency, Limited Wish has been duplicating PsiRef for some time now.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Yep, I know about Limited Wish, Miracle is simply an at will type measure that doesn't involve any sort of XP hit

[X-Codes]

Yep, I know about Limited Wish, Miracle is simply an at will type measure that doesn't involve any sort of XP hit

Small XP costs like Limited Wish or PsiRef are a non-expense, especially at the level you obtain it.  You have plenty of time before the rest of the party hits ECL 20 to make up the cost of a few castings of PsiRef in bonus XP from being a lower level.