Author Topic: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system  (Read 13606 times)

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ImperatorK

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Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« on: October 15, 2011, 10:09:16 AM »
Note: The following tier placements aren't complete. They're based on what I read (and still somewhat remember) here at BG and other boards, and also on my own estimates after just skimming the class descriptions, but aren't supported by any actual experience, playtesting or analysis on my part. I'm more of a chronicler, something like Gr1lledcheese's "Why each class is in its tier". Any suggestions, opinions or comments are absolutely welcome.
I hope that this PF tier system will grow and become at least half as widely know and respected as JaronK's work.
(Classes in italics are non-converted 3.5 classes evaluated under PF rules.
Classes in blue are high in their tier. Classes in red are low in their tier.)
P.S. I'm working under the assumption that 3.5 material is allowed and converted, so it's more a 3.P tier system, then just PF.

Tier 1: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Witch; Archivist, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

Tier 2: Sorcerer, Psion, Summoner, Oracle; Favored Soul,  Binder (with access to online vestiges), Eurdite (No Spell to Power)

Tier 3: Bard, Rogue, Psychic Warrior, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, Wilder; Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Variant Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum

Tier 4: Gunslinger, Ninja, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Soulknife; Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Zhentarim Variant)

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, Expert, Cavalier, Samurai; CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, OA Samurai, Knight, CW Samurai (with Imperious Command available)

Tier 6: Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner; CW Samurai (without Imperious Command available)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:49:38 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2011, 03:38:27 PM »
Theres a PF psionics conversion by Dreamscarred Press that might as well be official.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 04:08:31 PM »
I know. It is included, if you didn't notice.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 10:25:57 PM »
Should Non-Pathfinder options really be included in a Pathfinder Tiers system? I know a lot of players don't include standard 3.5 material with PF. I don't think stuff like Favored Soul, Binder, Tome of Battle, Dread Necro, Duskblade, Hexblade, etc should be included.

I think the really useful thing that should be done with a Pathfinder Tiers system would be to rank the Class Archetypes. Many of the Archetypes drastically change the overall power and utility of a class.

Regarding the Fighter, well, I was going to say that I didn't think he was Tier 5 anymore. That's before I looked at Pathfinder feats and how completely god awful they are. Holy shit they are so much worse than 3.5 feats. [/headdesk]

StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2011, 10:50:53 PM »
Summoner is at least tier 2.  They may only have 6 levels of spellcasting, but they get 1, 2, even 3 level discounts on most of their spells so it comes out the same except metamagic rods become cheaper.  Their eidolons are much, MUCH stronger than animal copanions or the Fighter class.  And they can drop a ton of summons each day with 10x duration as a standard action.  All with better HD and BAB than wiz/sorc.  They're kings of the action economy.

veekie

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 12:57:16 AM »
Should Non-Pathfinder options really be included in a Pathfinder Tiers system? I know a lot of players don't include standard 3.5 material with PF. I don't think stuff like Favored Soul, Binder, Tome of Battle, Dread Necro, Duskblade, Hexblade, etc should be included.

I think the really useful thing that should be done with a Pathfinder Tiers system would be to rank the Class Archetypes. Many of the Archetypes drastically change the overall power and utility of a class.

Regarding the Fighter, well, I was going to say that I didn't think he was Tier 5 anymore. That's before I looked at Pathfinder feats and how completely god awful they are. Holy shit they are so much worse than 3.5 feats. [/headdesk]
By this point in the game's evolution, you can disregard 3.5 material already, since PF now has enough material to stand on its own.

Plus, the newer spell lists are kinda screwed when they're competing with the old lists, and using the 3.5 spells gets around a number of the stealth nerfs. Take a look at save or dies, any kind of shapechanging, etc.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Prime32

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 01:24:14 AM »
Yeah, I'd say drop the 3.5e classes. There's already a place to look those up, and it will cause confusion when a class is more obscure in one edition than the other.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Tangy

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 06:57:54 AM »
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214108 Here's my take on PF class tiers, maybe this'll help a little.

ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 02:00:15 PM »
I'm including non-PF classes for people who DO use them in PF. If you don't then just ignore them. note that using PF rules, some of them can maybe be ranked higher or lower.

I'm not ranking class archetypes because I treat them as ACFs. BUT, if an ACF/archetype does change the rank of his class then please tell me and I include it.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 02:03:34 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2011, 05:24:08 PM »
Classes are fine, I'm talking more of non-PF feats and spells being considered.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2011, 05:25:57 PM »
PF is backwards compatible. Anyone who is playing PF-only is just losing on good stuff and wasting all the work that was put into making 3.5 handbooks (not to mention all the money invested into buying them).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 05:27:45 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Pathfinder tier system
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 05:39:29 PM »
However, spells and feats are designed on a different basis, which means that judging casters based on their 3.5 spell availability is going to leave your tiers inherently worthless to a pure PF play, particularly for T2s(T1s probably won't even notice). Spells just plain don't work the same way and feats have a different centering.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 05:47:23 PM »
I'm not playing PF-only, so I'm not making a PF-only tier system.
Also it should be quite obvious that any non-PF material will be converted to PF standards, which means that spells without saves will have saves and SoDs will deal damage like PF spells, etc.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 05:54:33 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 06:21:24 PM »
I'm not playing PF-only, so I'm not making a PF-only tier system.
Also it should be quite obvious that any non-PF material will be converted to PF standards, which means that spells without saves will have saves and SoDs will deal damage like PF spells, etc.
So this system ranks the houserules of individual DMs as a whole? ???

And that's far from obvious, especially for inexperienced DMs, which this is presumably aimed at.


Also, which knight and warlock did you mean?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 06:26:54 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 06:35:08 PM »
Hey. I was waiting for someone competent to make a PF tier system, but no one did, so I made it myself, on my terms. If you can make a better one, go ahead, no one is stopping you and I would be glad to delete this one.

Quote
So this system ranks the houserules of individual DMs as a whole?
no. This system ranks the classes with all that can be used with them.

Quote
And that's far from obvious, especially for inexperienced DMs, which this is presumably aimed at.
If this would be a completely new concept then maybe, but there is already a tier system and it is very popular.

Quote
Also, which knight and warlock did you mean?
It is stated that classes in italics are from 3.5.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 06:38:49 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2011, 07:39:30 PM »
Quote
And that's far from obvious, especially for inexperienced DMs, which this is presumably aimed at.
If this would be a completely new concept then maybe, but there is already a tier system and it is very popular.
That's not what I was referring to.
Also it should be quite obvious that any non-PF material will be converted to PF standards, which means that spells without saves will have saves and SoDs will deal damage like PF spells, etc.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2011, 07:48:30 PM »
Then I will write a disclaimer that this tier system is made under the assumption that you convert the 3.5 material to PF (which for me is obvious).
Happy now? :P
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2011, 07:28:25 AM »
What makes the Inquisitor so good? When I first read the class a long time ago I came away with the impression that it was complete garbage. Maybe things have changed since then (I think I only read the alpha), but can you give examples of why it's better than the PF Paladin?

ImperatorK

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2011, 01:31:45 PM »
It's similar to the Bard. At least that's what I read somewhere.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Pathfinder (3.P) tier system
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2011, 05:43:30 PM »
It actually has a pretty good spell list. Which I think actually makes it tier 3. Its class features are less then inspiring though.