Author Topic: Arcane Gish... "Tank"  (Read 10125 times)

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sirpercival

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 06:26:57 PM »
1st. Enlarge Person, for a gish.  2nd. Glitterdust, Alter Self.  3rd. Fly, Haste?, Dispel Magic.

Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Amoren

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 06:52:33 PM »
Alright!  I've got some ideas for her second 4th level spell too, although I'm not sure what would be better between stoneskin (Abjuration, so swift action to cast) or Bite of the Werewolf for some extra bonuses and damage.  Of course, she could always get Bite of the Werewolf now, and retrain it for stoneskin when she gets bite of the weretiger/wereboar too.

Edit: As a brief aside, would a Ring of Greater Blinking (Item creation guidelines, 5*9*2000 = 90,000gp) be worth it for the Telflammar Shadowlord build I'm working on?  It's about three times the price of the regular ring of blinking, and for the most part it just prevents him from taking the 20% miss chance he has himself...  Maybe something to get in the future.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 06:54:11 PM by Amoren »

sirpercival

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2011, 06:55:26 PM »
Stoneskin won't be a swift action unless you use bloodlines or legacy champion/uncanny trickster.  You can quicken up to 1/2 your abjurant champion level, rounded up, so normally 3rd level spells max.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Amoren

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2011, 06:59:05 PM »
Stoneskin won't be a swift action unless you use bloodlines or legacy champion/uncanny trickster.  You can quicken up to 1/2 your abjurant champion level, rounded up, so normally 3rd level spells max.

I might be mistaken, since I don't have the book right in front of me at the moment, but when I remember glancing at it said one-half your CLASS level, not your Abjurant Champion level.  Her class level is 13, so she can quicken up to 6th level spells.  Then again, this could be errata'd or I might have misread it, but either way Stoneskin can definately help make her take more damage if the DM does pull something out that can hit her AC (and if he can find something that can hit her 50 AC with Alter Self, I'll eat my beard!).

sirpercival

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2011, 07:21:25 PM »
Class level =/= character level.  The class is abjurant champion.

Find out how the DM feels about bloodlines, you could probably find a nice intermediate bloodline and get 4th-level spells quickened.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2011, 07:30:55 PM »
Whatever you do, check the XPH for the Gleaming armor enhancement. 20% miss chance up all the time. Not pierced by True Seeing, either.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 07:43:28 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2011, 08:03:47 PM »
I'm surprised nobody mentions Minor Shapeshift from complete mage. It's like damage reduction YOUR_HD/-
Because it's not like DR at all? You gain 20 Temp HP per round burning those Swift Actions that a JPM based build is already using which is depleted by the first attack a monster makes. It is handy, just not DR YOUR_HD/-.

Given that I always suggest JPM, I'm going to try something new, the Pale Master! It grants immunity to nonlethal damage and you only lose a single caster level getting to that point. Combine with the 30k Magical Location Shriver you become immune to HP damage unless it is Good and Chaotic. You even net free Animate Dead, -20% ASF with Undead Armor (you can upgrade the armor normally too), +4 Inherent to Str for free, the major catch is your not a gish in theme with the poor BAB and mechanically match an undead using caster until you hit level 7, at which point you take another PrC to improve your melee offense to add to that you can't hurt me defense. Just a thought.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
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weenog

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2011, 12:54:08 AM »
Is your DM also scared of Weapons of Legacy?  If you're allowed that book, and you really want to take advantage of the AC that Abjurant Champion can get you, take a look at the Legacy Champion PrC.  It's good for extending the class features of short PrCs with features based on class level, such as Abjurant Champion's class level to AC for abjuration spells.

It's in Complete Mage afaik, you're thinking of Legacy Champion.

Which is why I said Legacy Champion in that post you quoted.
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Merkwerdigeliebe

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2011, 01:01:21 AM »
Is your DM also scared of Weapons of Legacy?  If you're allowed that book, and you really want to take advantage of the AC that Abjurant Champion can get you, take a look at the Legacy Champion PrC.  It's good for extending the class features of short PrCs with features based on class level, such as Abjurant Champion's class level to AC for abjuration spells.

It's in Complete Mage afaik, you're thinking of Legacy Champion.

Which is why I said Legacy Champion in that post you quoted.

Ah, sorry... I even quoted it. I don't know what I was reading. Rough morning. Continue on.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2011, 02:19:01 AM »
@Amoren: How does rolling a natural 20 allow you to hit someone on the ethereal plane? That's where the miss chance comes in with Blink.

So if I roll high enough, I can cut through the fabric of the planes? Groovy.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

TC X0 Lt 0X

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2011, 05:52:35 AM »
'Heart of' spells would probably be better then getting Stoneskin anyway, on account that Heart of Stone can activate a Stoneskin effect as a swift action without the costly material component, and that the passive effects of the spells are not to shabby either and come useful in a pinch.

If I remember correctly, you can get them all on a Runestaff for around 12,000gp or so if you reduce the use of some of them to 1/day or 2/day...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 05:57:55 AM by TC X0 Lt 0X »
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Amoren

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2011, 09:35:58 AM »
@Amoren: How does rolling a natural 20 allow you to hit someone on the ethereal plane? That's where the miss chance comes in with Blink.

So if I roll high enough, I can cut through the fabric of the planes? Groovy.

It's more like a natural 20 is a very lucky blow.  So, rolling a natural 20, your blow was lucky enough to impact just when the person phases into existence, or some such.  Or conversely, your blow was skilled/good enough/whatever to be timed to hit the person when you're sure they're on the material plane.

Although I'm not sure if it would work on blink, it does work on displacement and other concealment chances, so hey.

Rejakor

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2011, 02:31:02 AM »
There is no reasoning, the DM just likes critical hits.  It's a very 1E/ADND way of looking at the game... wizards rock, fighters suck, natural 20's ALWAYS hit, and that's the way the game SHOULD be played.


For a gish, grab the Heart of X line in their entirety, consider a rogue dip for spell deflection, consider Elusive Target if Dodge and Mobility are pre-reqs for Arcane Duelist or Swiftblade (forget if they are...), consider polymorphing into an outsider or fey that is small and has great dex if you are going the Finesse route and your damage isn't coming from PA... Arcane Devotee or whatever that nets you the Heroism domain is really really nice and lets you tank your BAB... Extra Spell Known: Giant Size is fun to play around with.  Oh, and the most important; Find a way to buff really quickly.  Swiftblade 9/10 does this.  So does psionics.  Other than that you're looking at Incantatrix/spelldancer for free Persists, or stupidly high level stuff like Timestop.

There's a lot of really nice buffs out there... for the cha focused, check the X stat to Y bonus table for some neat things... personally I like Sirine's Grace for Palasorcs.  Consider writing two sheets - one when buffed, one when not buffed.  If you have a spare feat (which you won't), chuck it in Darkstalker.  Pimped Hide gives time to buff, if the party is willing to let you do a bit of scouting.


EDIT:  Oh, and never ever forget Wraithstrike and Bladeweave.  Fun, fun spells. 

Also, the idea that rolling a twenty as a swordsman should let you cut through time and space/the fabric of the planes is basically the entire premise behind the Tomes.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2011, 04:22:25 AM »
Get yourself a tinfoil hat, and use a raven familiar to ready the command word for whenever its master wants it expanded. That way you can get total cover from any effect you like, including critical hits.

100% miss chance due to a big wall of metal in the way is hard to overcome with an attack roll.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2011, 05:46:43 AM »
It won't stop a full attack.  Sunder breaks it, thereby breaking LoE blocking.

Also, a good DM will allow the 'missed' attack to be an attack on the AC 5 steel/adamantium/obdurium wall.


Personally, that's why i'm a fan of immediate action teleportation, or the Bodyguard line of feats.

EDIT:  Or Evasive Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2011, 09:03:40 PM »
It won't stop a full attack.  Sunder breaks it, thereby breaking LoE blocking.
You have to call a sunder, which means that the first attack auto-whiffs (which was the crit, mind you -- once the crit is over you're not in as much danger), the second is a sunder (which may or may not get all the way through your hat, given it's half-damage AND subtracted hardness -- which you've likely enhanced at later levels), and the third and fourth A.) may not happen at all, and B.) will probably miss you if they do at -10 or better off his BAB.

And why the hell are you letting someone get you with a full attack? The only excuse is a pouncing charge.

And there's always riverine. No amount of sunder will go through that without a rod of cancellation, and who carries those around on a regular basis?

And you could always get tricky and wear, say, five hats, with the password on the last one being "one two three four five," and each one on top of that being one number less (so hat #4 would be "one two three four!" and so on). So if that level 20 whirling frenzy pouncing barbarian is charging you, it calls out "one two three four five!" and all five hats enlarge, which means all five pouncing sunder attacks are gone, and you're free to skip away through the Astral, Ethereal, or Shadow Plane at your leisure.

Also, a good DM will allow the 'missed' attack to be an attack on the AC 5 steel/adamantium/obdurium wall.
That's not RAW, though you do have a point in a RL game, assuming a GOOD DM.

Personally, that's why i'm a fan of immediate action teleportation, or the Bodyguard line of feats.

EDIT:  Or Evasive Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit.
Those work just fine as well. This is just a really cheap way of doing it.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2011, 11:59:14 PM »
Srsly are you guys doing the stupid hat thing?

The guy that can lift half a ton picks it up and hits you with it as an improvised weapon.
Good day.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2011, 01:14:10 PM »
Srsly are you guys doing the stupid hat thing?

The guy that can lift half a ton picks it up and hits you with it as an improvised weapon.
Good day.

He can do this, but this will take a move and a standard action which still makes the tactic somewhat viable, especially if the character had already declared an attack. But you are right it is in no way a long term solution.

Rejakor

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2011, 12:32:44 AM »
Well, this isn't TO... anything suggested here is assumed to have to at some point be used in an actual game.

A lot of tricks suggested for wizardy characters are thematic even if they're borked to the wall... the tinfoil/riverine hat is more just abusing a rules loophole about called attacks.  Not only will it turn the GM against you, it will likely be houseruled so monsters will be cutting through the tinfoil hat in no time.  It's just not reliable as a defense due to DM book-throwing.

Furthermore, as a gish, it's far less useful.  Sure it's a get-out-of-jail-free card, but you're saccing your ability to attack back on your turn for it, and it has a recharge (unless you're wandering about with layered hats.. at which point.. again... you're antagonizing the GM a fair bit).  A gish, unlike a regular wizard, will be putting themselves in harm's way a fair bit more, and more than once in a single combat.  So defences that work over and over (Wings of Cover, defensive buffs, spell deflection, pocket hp-sink bodyguard, pocket shield other hp sink, evasive reflexes, abrupt jaunt, lockdown, all those things) are far more valuable than xp-costing contingencies or pre shrunk hats, the traditional wizard tricks.  Contingencies should be limited to 'If I am about to die' or 'fail a save vs a spell or effect that would trap me for more than an hour'.  Otherwise you're just wasting XP, you EXPECT to get critted by the occasional minion as a gish, and that should be okay.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Arcane Gish... "Tank"
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2011, 12:28:57 AM »
If you're going to be a paladin/sorcerer the best bet is paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/sacredexorcist8

Feats:
1-power attack, combat casting
3-knowledge devotion (the planes for your knowledge skill)
6-practiced spellcaster
9-arcane strike
12-minor shapeshift
15-divine might
18-whatever

At ECL 13 you'll be casting as a 11th level sorcerer and I'd recommend the following spell list:
1-shield, grease, silent image, protection from evil, charm person
2-glitterdust, wings of cover, resist energy, invisibility, web
3-dispel magic, haste, greater magic weapon, stinking cloud, phantom steed
4-greater mirror image, wings of flurry, orb of fire
5-dismissal (for sacred exorcist), draconic polymorph

Lots of swift/immediate actions spells with plenty of buffs, spells that target all 3 saves, and just a little bit of debuff, blasting, battlefield control, and utility to round things out.