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Author Topic: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful  (Read 6295 times)
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oslecamo
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 07:30:57 PM »

And to imagine Robbypants said frank and k didn't love rocket tag to the extreme.
Care to not strawman so goddamn hard? I never said that. I said that people at the Den weren't the only ones who like RLT, and that a lot of COers here did too.
You're forgeting the part where you say lots of people at the GD dislike rocket tag. So small lack of clarification on my part, since what the conversations there show is that the tomes are basically worshiped by the locals, and the tomes are overwhelming with rocket tag.

So, yeah. I like how you drag my name into a conversation on a thread where I'm already agreeing with you a few posts above and on top of that, completely lie about what I'm saying and what I've said.
What agreement? You talked about some imaginary tag (there's so many strategies out there to counter dragons they could really use the tome feats just to keep up), and then you went on how the undead creation feats are "badass", which may be interpretred in a lot of ways, but certainly not that they're horribly designed, as I was pointing out.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 07:33:58 PM by oslecamo » Logged

RobbyPants
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 07:37:52 PM »

You're forgeting the part where you say lots of people at the GD dislike rocket tag. So small lack of clarification on my part, since what the conversations there show is that the tomes are basically worshiped by the locals, and the tomes are overwhelming with rocket tag.
No, I'm not forgetting it. I linked it for a reason. I never said Frank and K don't like rocket tag. They explicitly built it into the Tomes. So, what you said to Kaelik (you know, the part I quoted you saying last post), was a complete lie. Stop shifting goal posts.


What agreement?
The whole superpower thing in the fighter thread. The part where I said fighters need superpowers (as one of three options) and you said "no, they need superpowers". It turns out, we were agreeing with each other.


You talked about some imaginary tag (there's so many strategies out there to counter dragons they could really use the tome feats just to keep up), and then you went on how the undead creation feats are "badass", which may be interpretred in a lot of ways, but certainly not that they're horribly designed, as I was pointing out.
Wat?
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Midnight_v
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Posts: 2660


Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.


« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 08:07:44 PM »

Oslecamo being here, and there not being an ignore button... is an unclear ruling by the dm.
He's totally full of grognard, neckbeard, littledick-dm-isms", he goes beyond things like
"Fighters, can't have nice things" he's actively advocating something akin to "Players shouldn't
get nice things". I actually don't talk to him as much as I can because his opinion set is so wrong.
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Kaelik
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 08:32:59 PM »

Again, all of the undead creating ones. Because they're not really based on the Leadership feat, following completely diferent rules for your minions, and then hand you multiple of your CR-2, which is completely retarded whetever Leadership exists or not.

Confused All the ones that are based on leadership? Yes, I just said those are all terrible. Everything that is based off leadership is terrible, just like it is in the Core rules. The undead creation feats aren't particularly more problematic than undead clerics turning a Shadow at level 4, then creating an infinite shadow army through butterfly murder. Or people casting Dominate Monster several hundred times in order to amass an army of slaves, or calling magic, or any of the other things that are just as bad in 3.5.

Yes, everything the Tome does to give people armies is fucking terrible. Just like everything that 3e has ever done to give people armies. The problem is the armies part, not the design, because there is no way to do it right. The Tomes just give DM unspecific versions that cost feats, instead of DM specific versions that cost nothing. Dominate Monster chaining is not in any appreciable way less of a problem than Tome undead creation feats.

Here's a little secret. Metamagic isn't broken by itself. What's broken are metamagic reducers that started to sprout rampadly trough splatbooks (divine metamagic, incantrix, you name it)

Confused Yes. I agree that metamagic is not broken by itself. That's why I made a bunch of metamagic feats and a system that are objectively more powerful than 3.5 metamagic without reducers.

Your "fix" is, basically, free metamagic. With the limitation that you don't get to go over your normal level, so still in overpowered if not simply broken territorry, because lower level spells cast as swift actions whitout burning your precious high level spell slots are still greatly increasing the caster's power. And of course using standard TO interpretation skills, people will claim  it stacks with Divine metamagic/Incantrix style reducers anyway.

My fix is designed to increase caster power. That was it's purpose. Because it's designed to be played with Tome rules, including Races of War, and including heavy monster optimization, and so the power up to casters in the form of metamagic application is not a problem, it is the goal. And I still think I can appropriately challenge PCs using those rules, or I wouldn't have a recruitment thread on this forum where I'm DMing using those rules.

And yes, people might argue that they can still use Incantatrix and DMM and that is left specifically vague so that DMs can make that decision themselves, though I have in the thread with those rules, my explicit recommendation that they allow DMM Persist, but no Incantatrix/Arcane Thesis/Ect, and I use those rules in my own games.

As for other borked feats, Child necromancer is +4 to CL, free AC and to-hit bonus, plus several other goodies rolled into 1.

Ghost-cut tecnique is wraithstrike and Lifesight rolled into one, the second of which is actually a pretty powerful feat by itself.

Paralyzing touch, well, paralyzes for 1 minute with all your natural and unarmed attacks, which is just on par with frank's combat school(no bonus to attack/damage, but 1 minute duration means they're completely screwed if they fail a save. And it stacks with combat school!). And then throw in Enervating Touch for no-save negative levels with your natural and unarmed attacks.

Stoning gaze is yet another save-or-die as a free action stacked with the rest. And to imagine Robbypants said lots of people at the GD didn't love rocket tag to the extreme.

1) +4 CL for necromancy spells. And the "free ac and to hit bonuses" are the same as the ones they get for being a small creature, with the same drawbacks. Unless you ban Strong Heart Halflings, I'm not sure why you think that's broken aside from +4 CL to necromancy spells, which of course... isn't.

2) So... You think Ghost Cut Technique is more powerful than Races of War feats? It's pretty balanced to me.

3) And Paralysis, lots of people have immunity, unlike Daze, and yes, it wins fights. So does killing people, so do save or dies. If you are a Ghoul, you can take a feat that gives you the Paralysis that Ghouls have. But first you have to be a Ghoul.

4) Only if you are willing to write off ever standing within 60ft of people you don't want to stone. I consider that a high enough cost for a level 9 character to obtain a free action stoning gaze, because some people like to have allies near them even when enemies are not.

Bottom line, you haven't really named any feats that are more powerful than Races of War feats.
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Midnight_v
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Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.


« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 11:49:31 PM »

I brought my brother in to read the thread and he had this to say, he's not an optimizer but has read the tomes and agree's with a lot of the assumptions in that work basically reading it w/o years on the ops boards and just playing the game mostly.
His statement is about interpretations of Combat School the feat.
"I find it odd that people are debating, if a fighter dealing his damage to an opponent and requireing a save on an attack, or all his attacks for that matter are broke. Is it more fair somehow that the wizard can look at you and ask for that save or worse saves than daze... from all kinds of distances. I find it relavant cause moreso because many monsters cast as sorcerers" I don't get the fuss?"
Quote
Here's a little secret. Metamagic isn't broken by itself. What's broken are metamagic reducers that started to sprout rampadly trough splatbooks (divine metamagic, incantrix, you name it
)
Well, even without those metamagic can be decent, except... well honestly the majority of people using metamagic are trying to blast, which is a difficult path.
I'm certain you're not making a core only argument, because thats just stupid so meh.
However, it occurs to me that, the worth of it is based on the spells, Maximized Combust is decent at level 10. 80 damage no save. Isn't terrible and can kill somethings of that level.
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bkdubs123
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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2011, 12:58:15 AM »

My point isn't that save or daze on all of the Fighter's attacks is broken. My point is that a few Tome feats can add up to benefits that are more powerful than entire Tome classes. I find that really odd is all.
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Midnight_v
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Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.


« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2011, 01:28:33 AM »

My point isn't that save or daze on all of the Fighter's attacks is broken. My point is that a few Tome feats can add up to benefits that are more powerful than entire Tome classes. I find that really odd is all.
Its hard to quantify if something is odd, but....
There is an underlying assumtion there that I agree with, and I rember dither saying something like this vaguely and a few other people to, but frank and K seem to have been the first to really get recognized for it.
Bab=CL=Skills Ranks in terms of how they valued them when they made the classes. Or at least the original 3.X seems to think so. Thats really relavant. Skills less so and tend to come with extra damage rog, or partial casting bard. There exists 2 classes that have only spells as class features okay wizards get feats but thats because they vastly overvalued spontaneous casting on the sorc.
And theres the fighter who gets ONLY feats as his class abilities.
Now there are some obvious things that can be gathered from this.
 Gaining several spells each level is supposed to be roughly equal to gaining class features,
and also every feat generally regarded as supposed to be equal to class features.
  I do believe that your original assertion is incorrect as mentioned above the generic warrior gets no feats (and as a dm I've used that many times to make nameless mooks even in non tome games), and as someone mentioned above if you're a warblade in a tome game you're using tome feats, obviously. To say that there are strings of feats more powerful than entire tome classes is something that I disagree with, because of the above, you can't separate the two, the classes are built and reasonably so with the idea that you'll be pulling from that list.
    Again the assumption is that feats Combat feats and skill feats especially are roughly equal to class features. Analyze, and you'll see the game already assumes this 3.X just fails to deliver except by accident over a dozen splat books so you get things like "Robilars'Gambit" and things like "Dodge" existing at the same value level. Also at the same value level in which people get natural spell, and an new spell level, and 2 more spells of each level they can cast.
 Leadership feats should not exist in my book except to gain a mount. However, the thing about the necromacy feats, and honestly most of the things that Oscelcomo complains about are things that casters can do but non-casters can't, but there should be ways to do those things in a fantasy world for everyone.
Having scaling feats are the only way that I'm going to feel good about learning archery as a primary melee. Because currently the feat investiture is too high to be good at 1 tihng... break.
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something random
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2011, 09:02:11 PM »

Sorry if this has already been answered I have only skimmed this thread. But what book or books are these feats in?
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RobbyPants
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2011, 09:17:12 PM »

Sorry if this has already been answered I have only skimmed this thread. But what book or books are these feats in?
They're houserules created by Frank and K. You can find them stickied at The Gaming Den, and also organized at dnd-wiki.org. The wiki also contains a lot of community material introduced by people other than Frank & K.

The feats in the OP are found under Races of War.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
RobbyPants
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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2011, 09:21:00 PM »

And to imagine Robbypants said lots of people at the GD didn't love rocket tag to the extreme.
I notice you ninja edited your post, but you're still paraphrasing me wrong. I didn't say lots of people don't like it. what I said was:

In other words, few people outside of the gaming den actualy enjoy auto rocket tag as default.
The CO boards here seem to love it. And plenty of people at the Den hate it and look for ways to fix it. It's just that Tome is more associated with the Den than here.

Please stop misrepresenting what I say anytime the word "Tome" comes up.
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My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
Midnight_v
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 2660


Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.


« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2011, 12:08:41 AM »

What I like about the tome feats.. it changes optimization rule number 1
Thou shalt not give up caster levels.
into
Thou shalt not give up base attack bonus.
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Prak, the Mad
Donkey Kong
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2011, 07:33:45 AM »

I'm torn between two responses, so...


and "In other news, water is wet."
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Midnight_v
Organ Grinder
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Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.


« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2011, 08:32:45 AM »

Whats this guy talking about? Is that in response to the title in the op?
Or what I said?
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ImperatorK
Bi-Curious George
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Posts: 500



« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2011, 09:03:08 AM »

Whats this guy talking about? Is that in response to the title in the op?
Or what I said?
What, you don't recognize trolling? Confused
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Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
bkdubs123
Organ Grinder
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Posts: 2724


« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2011, 03:47:24 PM »

Whats this guy talking about? Is that in response to the title in the op?
Or what I said?

I think it's in response to the title, which I find humorous.
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awaken DM golem
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« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2011, 11:51:00 PM »



... I mean, imaging what Pathfinder would look like with people like Frank, K, and folks on this forum involved ... 



My kitty avatar can not image this ...  Twitch
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oslecamo
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2011, 12:05:32 AM »



... I mean, imaging what Pathfinder would look like with people like Frank, K, and folks on this forum involved ... 



My kitty avatar can not image this ...  Twitch

You don't need imagination. It already happened. Frank left.

In his own words

And while I did make a good faith effort to help them out when they said they were doing a big open playtest, when it became clear that they didn't want any actual feedback and were only interested in running market focus grouping and grassroots publicity, I lost interest and stopped paying attention to what they were doing.

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veekie
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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2011, 06:09:17 AM »

But hey, the publicity and market surveys worked by damn!
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