Author Topic: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful  (Read 6235 times)

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bkdubs123

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[Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« on: October 13, 2011, 12:21:16 AM »
As the thread title suggests, I believe that Tome feats are really powerful. A lot of them seem like they add up to granting benefits that are generally more powerful than Tome class features. Is that too much? I know that many people look at the Tome Fighter and call it overpowered for its class features; however, I've heard players of Tome games complain that the Fighter is too powerful because of all of his bonus feats.

For example, let's look at a Human Warrior 6 with Tome feats, plugged into a non-Tome, standard 3.5 game and given PC wealth.

Human Warrior 6
[spoiler]
Abilities (28pt buy)
Str 17 Dex 13 Con 15 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 8

Vitals
HP: 36, AC 25, Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2

Tome Feats
Combat SchoolB (1st), Elusive Target (1st), Murderous Intent (3rd), Two-Weapon Fighting (6th)

This nets +2 to attack and damage, melee save or Daze on every hit, +2 to AC, enemies can't flank or gain higher ground or power attack bonuses, coup de grace as a standard action, +2 morale to attack and damage for 1 minute after killing an enemy, a once per round AoO against a flat-footed target, perfect two-weapon fighting, an extra AoO per round with off-hand, and +2 shield AC with two weapons.

Attacks
+1 Longsword +12/+7 melee, 1d8+6, Fort DC 16 vs Dazed for 1 round; and +1 Shortsword +12/+7, 1d6+6, Fort DC 16 vs Dazed for 1 round.

Equipment
+1 Longsword, +1 Shortsword, +1 Full Plate, Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +1
[/spoiler]

With the Tome feats, that Warrior 6 seems just about the equal of a Warblade 6 without them. Does anyone else find that odd but me? Are Tome feats too powerful if they end up being more powerful than class features, especially Tome class features?

EDIT: I forgot about the 6th level feat, now the Warrior NPC with Tome feats seems more powerful than the Warblade 6 without them.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 01:36:07 AM by bkdubs123 »

Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 12:56:32 AM »
My first thought was, "if the fighter with tome feats is finally equal to a warblade, we might have an easy solution," but that aoo still needs them to be ff. Not hard, but not going to score it every turn. They can finally tank like pretty much every other tank can, they can do some decent lockdown, enemies are worse at fighting than the fighter.... I think it works, actually. I mean that description fits a lv 6 crusader pretty well. Maybe including tome feats for fighters is a nice, patchwork solution.

bkdubs123

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2011, 01:04:21 AM »
My first thought was, "if the fighter with tome feats is finally equal to a warblade, we might have an easy solution," but that aoo still needs them to be ff. Not hard, but not going to score it every turn. They can finally tank like pretty much every other tank can, they can do some decent lockdown, enemies are worse at fighting than the fighter.... I think it works, actually. I mean that description fits a lv 6 crusader pretty well. Maybe including tome feats for fighters is a nice, patchwork solution.

Except it's a Warrior NPC, not a Fighter. A Fighter would have bonus Tome feats and be a lot more powerful than a Warblade.


bkdubs123

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2011, 01:36:42 AM »
I forgot to add a feat for being 6th level. With it, the Warrior seems more powerful than a Warblade.

Unbeliever

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2011, 02:25:04 AM »
I do feel the Tome feats are a bit too powerful.  Like many things in the Tome, I like the idea, but am not 100% on board in its execution.  I do wish this had somehow blossomed into a full-blown system or supplement though.  I mean, imaging what Pathfinder would look like with people like Frank, K, and folks on this forum involved. 

And, +1 Oscelamo.

In general, I think Frank and K were aiming at balancing feats and melee classes against extremely optimized casters.  I seem to recall them saying that by 10th level they expect wizards to be slinging multiple spells in a round, etc.  Which is to say, if you're balancing against tightly-built Incantatrixes and Planar Shepherds, then ... well, maybe this is what you end up with.

These guys -- https://sites.google.com/site/triomegazero/kirthfinder -- which I think were linked to in another thread here, take a similar approach to the Tome, but is a bit more moderate.  They also make a lot of things that are stances or similar ToB abilities into feats.  I haven't gone through it very much -- the legal academic job market is huge time sink -- but I was intrigued.

Bozwevial

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2011, 03:03:00 AM »
Just a quick note here, but Warriors under the Tome rules don't get feats. You just give them a +1 to hit for every feat they'd be eligible for, because they're supposed to be low-level faceless mooks.

But yeah, the Warblade isn't balanced for the level of play the Tome was. Neither are a great many wizards, clerics, and the like that a lot of people play, but hey. That's actually why I'm somewhat reluctant about introducing the Tome to some new players tomorrow--my gut feeling is that if the people playing the casters don't work very hard to keep up, the other Tome characters will outshine them. Handing an experienced player a wizard and telling him to match the rest of the party is one thing; it's another thing to expect that from someone who's never played a roleplaying game before.

Kaelik

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2011, 09:42:48 AM »
1) There should be a distinction between Tome feats, and Races of War feats. Races of War is a serious upscale in power over the previous Tomes, and this is true of the feats as well.

2) Tome feats are not really that much of a problem, because aside from getting a bunch of bonus feats, they really aren't much more powerful than a class should be. Obviously, the part where they are stacked onto the class features of other Races of War classes, or given as bonuses, can be a problem.

3) You also really should be giving Races of War feats to monsters if you have PCs taking them. And ideally eventually there would have been a generic CR=HD conversion done to monsters, but that will never actually exist at this point, so in practice, they are one more thing that you can give your monsters, but you also have to be careful with, less you overkill. Not terribly different from Blaspheming Half Fiendish Elementals with CLs that insta kill PCs.

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2011, 12:58:47 PM »
I'm playing in a couple of Tome games and we're all loving it... :)

oslecamo

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2011, 01:52:11 PM »
1) There should be a distinction between Tome feats, and Races of War feats. Races of War is a serious upscale in power over the previous Tomes, and this is true of the feats as well.

No, it isn't. Every tome character wants to be an undead, fiend or both for the ridiculously good feats it unlocks.

What's that, Path of Blood? A number of max-level cohorts equal to my Cha mod? Or perhaps I'll take whispers of the netherworld, that lets me creater any incorporeal undead whitout costs or limitations as aparently a standard action (none is defined, so standard by default). And keep multiple of them at the same time. Oh and they fight better too! Take all the remaining "max-level  cohorts equal to your Cha mod" necro feats, and you can easily rape a tome fighter any day of the week with your undead army.

They're like leadership (already a crazily good feat), but much stronger, and stackable.

Then there's also at-will greater teleport at 5th level, size increase including the stat boosters for a single feat, and plenty of other extra-powerful crap to pick from.

RobbyPants

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2011, 02:34:43 PM »
My first thought was, "if the fighter with tome feats is finally equal to a warblade, we might have an easy solution," but that aoo still needs them to be ff. Not hard, but not going to score it every turn. They can finally tank like pretty much every other tank can, they can do some decent lockdown, enemies are worse at fighting than the fighter.... I think it works, actually. I mean that description fits a lv 6 crusader pretty well. Maybe including tome feats for fighters is a nice, patchwork solution.

Except it's a Warrior NPC, not a Fighter. A Fighter would have bonus Tome feats and be a lot more powerful than a Warblade.
I've seen suggestions to fix the 3.5 fighter by allowing him (and only fighters) to take Tome [Combat] feats on their bonus feats. I've never seen this implemented in a 3.5 game or read of any results, so I don't know how it'd stack up. I've also seen people suggest using the Tome fighter and nixing the [Combat] feats.


And we shall not talk of when the monsters with their inflated Bab and HD get their hands on said Tome feats.
Yeah, I was rolling up a dragon to be a BBEG for later in the campaign, and I had serious reservations for handing out [Combat] feats with the thing having well over 16 HD. Since dragons have the [Awesome] tag, anyway, I opted to use regular feats. It's still pretty badass.


1) There should be a distinction between Tome feats, and Races of War feats. Races of War is a serious upscale in power over the previous Tomes, and this is true of the feats as well.

No, it isn't. Every tome character wants to be an undead, fiend or both for the ridiculously good feats it unlocks.
The cohort granting ones are pretty badass. I haven't dealt with spheres before, but those seem kind of cool. It just seems like you need a lot of feats for it to get good, though.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
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[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 04:07:44 PM »
Quote
I do feel the Tome feats are a bit too powerful.
Can you give me an example of which ones you think are too powerful?
I often hear that I don't think I ever get a good explanation.

Quote
size increase including the stat boosters for a single feat,
Should probbably exist anyway, and NOT just as fiend feats. Its one of those casters getting nice things arguments. A gish(in this case any caster focused on beating you in melee) will cast his buff spell to be big theoretically a few times a day, or all day long as the case may be.
Enlarge person is a first level spell.
Divine Power = 4th level
Polymorph = 4th
Wildshape... just ... wildshape.
So not directing this to oslecamo for an answer but just saying that if you don't allow feats that increase size, strength, and reach then its strictly the purview of casters and thats wrong. Same with teleporting and other movement effects look at the popularity of shadow stride. Frankly though I have no problem with someone using those feats, if they want, but I don't normally as a fiendish or undead character isn't something I'm really interested in playing often. Though if you do it should be good mechanically to do so, as should everything else. Trap options are expansive and ruinous in D&D.
Quote
Just a quick note here, but Warriors under the Tome rules don't get feats. You just give them a +1 to hit for every feat they'd be eligible for, because they're supposed to be low-level faceless mooks.
+1
Really I think the problem is people feel like those who advocate the tome, think its perfect. No such animal as perfect but it does take some of the edge off being a melee.
Also for the record, I don't think Combat school is supposed to work like that, dazing on every round etc.
However, the idea that BAB is supposed to be equivalent to spell casting levels, and that a feat is supposed to be equal there for to a couple of spells, depending is totally something I can't refute as being correct. 
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RobbyPants

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 04:25:27 PM »
Also for the record, I don't think Combat school is supposed to work like that, dazing on every round etc.
I'm pretty sure it does:

Quote from: Combat School
+6: When you strike your opponent with the signature moves of your fighting school in melee, they must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ½ your level + your Strength bonus) or become dazed for one round.
There's no stipulation in there, so at a minimum, you can attempt to stunlock one guy for the encounter. A lot of the [Combat] feats really encourage TWF, and this is one of them. By sixth level, you could be attempting to stunlock four guys at once (although it's not too likely that you'll keep hitting and they'll keep failing their saves). Realistically, you could TWF and focus on two guys and probably keep them dazed until their HP run out.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 04:40:59 PM »
The only ones I've had trouble with as a DM are the "Leadership squared" feats (i.e. you get to make a bunch of powerful minions), but that's after "interpreting" Combat School and other things to only work once per target per round.

I do use them on NPCs, and they are quite powerful when used like that, but then again... so are the Tome of Battle classes and feats. That's more of a problem with how inflated NPC hit dice are for their CR than anything else.

As far as comparing a Tome warrior NPC to a warblade... I don't really care. If you're playing a warblade in a Tome game, you should be taking Tome feats...

I do think the Tome Fighter is a tad overpowered as-is, which is why I use a slightly nerfed version in my own games.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 04:42:58 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Unbeliever

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 05:17:36 PM »
Actually, glancing over them again, it's mostly just that silly Combat School one, which I would have also errata'ed if I ever used the Tome.  So, I kind of stand corrected on that.  There is a slightly different game philosophy in the Combat feats that F&K use:  they view them almost as warrior archetypes on the explicitly-stated theory that you only get a handful of them in the course of a game.  Which is only sort of true (e.g., their Fighter and Samurai give a bunch of bonus feats). 

I'd have to think about how I'd integrate them into a normal D&D game, since they do so much more than a "normal" feat does.  Though I think the house rules I posted earlier are an attempt to do that.  Anyone made that attempt?  I'd feel awkward having one person take Maximize Spell or even Imperious Command and another person taking Juggernaut [combat] for the same cost. 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2011, 05:22:11 PM »
Actually, glancing over them again, it's mostly just that silly Combat School one, which I would have also errata'ed if I ever used the Tome.  So, I kind of stand corrected on that.  There is a slightly different game philosophy in the Combat feats that F&K use:  they view them almost as warrior archetypes on the explicitly-stated theory that you only get a handful of them in the course of a game.  Which is only sort of true (e.g., their Fighter and Samurai give a bunch of bonus feats). 

I'd have to think about how I'd integrate them into a normal D&D game, since they do so much more than a "normal" feat does.  Though I think the house rules I posted earlier are an attempt to do that.  Anyone made that attempt?  I'd feel awkward having one person take Maximize Spell or even Imperious Command and another person taking Juggernaut [combat] for the same cost. 
There are homebrewed Metamagic feats for Tome games, also.

And yes, they assume  you only get a few of these, which is why I don't allow flaws and other cheesy ways to get more feats in the Tome games I run/have ran.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 05:37:36 PM »
Quote
Combat School [Combat]
You are a member of a completely arbitrary fighting
school that has a number of recognizable signature
fighting moves.
Quote
0: First, name your fighting style (such as “Hammer
and Anvil Technique” or “Crescent Moon Style”, or
“Way of the Lightning Mace”). This fighting style
only works with a small list of melee weapons that
you have to describe the connectedness to the DM
in a half-way believable way. Now, whenever you
are using that technique in melee combat, you gain
a +2 bonus on attack rolls.  
Quote
First, name your fighting style (such as “Hammer
and Anvil Technique” or “Crescent Moon Style”, or
“Way of the Lightning Mace”). This fighting style
only works with a small list of melee weapons that
you have to describe the connectedness to the DM
in a half-way believable way. Now, whenever you
are using that technique in melee combat
, you gain
a +2 bonus on attack rolls
.
 Now in my head I've always read that to be a feat intended to work in the way of High Sword low axe, and I understand that people are saying it works like 3 mountains style, though any interpretation where it works like "daze on everyhit" like what some of you suggest is an odd interpretation to me.
So yeah 3 mountains style actually already does this, and no, it really isn't intended to say "Oh every attack dazes" as My every attack is a bullshit interpretation of "signature move" and if its Every 2 attacks, its already an existing feat.
It may need a clarification thats all. Its not broke.

Quote
I'd feel awkward having one person take Maximize Spell or even Imperious Command and another person taking Juggernaut [combat] for the same cost  
Why? Imperious Command is basically a stunlock, anyone who uses it is playing "Stack fear" which kills anyone who isn't immune to it
Maximize spell... is a part of a tool box.
Juggernaut is a part of a tool box, as well.  Helpng to build. Some feats help to build, you know?

The only tome feat I don't like is Blitz. I'm not an apologist, about it. I can't say its different from any shocktrooper/pounce... though so maybe I don't like that either, its strong it exists, I shouldn't be offended by it, I know. The thought of blitz takes some getting used to. Subtle Cut Did as well honestly... but I KNOW better or at least I should.
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Kaelik

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 06:12:08 PM »
1) Combat School is the most problematic of Tome feats, and you actually can't get Frank or K to tell you what they intended for it, because they will actually refuse to answer.

2) Yes Osle, Leadership feats are really powerful. But Leadership, the actual DMG feat, is more powerful than any Tome Feat that doesn't grant leadership effects, that doesn't mean that DMG feats are more powerful that Races of War feats. That's a problem with Leadership, not with Tome feats, and the solution is to ban leadership. Now name a feat that is as powerful as combat feats that isn't leadership. You will of course say Greater Teleport, which isn't, and isn't problematic for the game, and Size increases, which are a problem only because they have the same RNG destroying effect as Races of War feats. But I wrote my own errata, and halved the attribute gain, so I obviously agree with you that those two feats are too powerful. Aside from two feats in Tome of Fiends, and things that grant minion armies (which all need to go) can you name any other feats that are as powerful as Tome feats.

3) I actually recommend you check out my errata, which nerfs/clarifies combat school, nerfs size increase feats, and provides amongst other things, metamagic feats that are much better than the standard ones, without being overpowered in any way. But you should in general be skeptical of any feats you find not directly in the Tomes, like other people's proposed metamagic feats (and by extension mine as well) because in general, the Tomes themselves power creeped, and community material only comes to be when some idiot wants to be more powerful than the most powerful existing Tome build.

oslecamo

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2011, 07:11:30 PM »
1) Combat School is the most problematic of Tome feats, and you actually can't get Frank or K to tell you what they intended for it, because they will actually refuse to answer.
Gotta love how they bitch all the time about rules being unclear, and then they themselves refuse to clarify their own version.

2) Yes Osle, Leadership feats are really powerful. But Leadership, the actual DMG feat, is more powerful than any Tome Feat that doesn't grant leadership effects, that doesn't mean that DMG feats are more powerful that Races of War feats. That's a problem with Leadership, not with Tome feats, and the solution is to ban leadership. Now name a feat that is as powerful as combat feats that isn't leadership.
Again, all of the undead creating ones. Because they're not really based on the Leadership feat, following completely diferent rules for your minions, and then hand you multiple of your CR-2, which is completely retarded whetever Leadership exists or not.

You will of course say Greater Teleport, which isn't, and isn't problematic for the game, and Size increases, which are a problem only because they have the same RNG destroying effect as Races of War feats. But I wrote my own errata, and halved the attribute gain, so I obviously agree with you that those two feats are too powerful. Aside from two feats in Tome of Fiends, and things that grant minion armies (which all need to go) can you name any other feats that are as powerful as Tome feats.

3) I actually recommend you check out my errata, which nerfs/clarifies combat school, nerfs size increase feats, and provides amongst other things, metamagic feats that are much better than the standard ones, without being overpowered in any way.

Here's a little secret. Metamagic isn't broken by itself. What's broken are metamagic reducers that started to sprout rampadly trough splatbooks (divine metamagic, incantrix, you name it)

Your "fix" is, basically, free metamagic. With the limitation that you don't get to go over your normal level, so still in overpowered if not simply broken territorry, because lower level spells cast as swift actions whitout burning your precious high level spell slots are still greatly increasing the caster's power. And of course using standard TO interpretation skills, people will claim  it stacks with Divine metamagic/Incantrix style reducers anyway.

As for other borked feats, Child necromancer is +4 to CL, free AC and to-hit bonus, plus several other goodies rolled into 1.

Ghost-cut tecnique is wraithstrike and Lifesight rolled into one, the second of which is actually a pretty powerful feat by itself.

Paralyzing touch, well, paralyzes for 1 minute with all your natural and unarmed attacks, which is just on par with frank's combat school(no bonus to attack/damage, but 1 minute duration means they're completely screwed if they fail a save. And it stacks with combat school!). And then throw in Enervating Touch for no-save negative levels with your natural and unarmed attacks.

Stoning gaze is yet another save-or-die as a free action stacked with the rest. And to imagine Robbypants said lots of people at the GD didn't love rocket tag to the extreme.

RobbyPants

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Re: [Tome, 3.5] Tome Feats are Powerful
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2011, 07:18:23 PM »
And to imagine Robbypants said frank and k didn't love rocket tag to the extreme.
Care to not strawman so goddamn hard? I never said that. I said that people at the Den weren't the only ones who like RLT, and that a lot of COers here did too.

So, yeah. I like how you drag my name into a conversation on a thread where I'm already agreeing with you a few posts above and on top of that, completely lie about what I'm saying and what I've said.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 07:20:44 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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