Author Topic: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?  (Read 35542 times)

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skydragonknight

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2011, 10:33:20 PM »
*grabs popcorn as the gloves come off*
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2011, 10:38:01 PM »
Wind wall is a stupid spell. You'll get no argument from me, and I try to houserule it to be less obnoxious. What I'm talking about is people who say "Make that bow Force, so you have a way to deal with Wind wall" - that kind of authoritative statement is frustrating, because it tells me people haven't read the relevant rules but think they're qualified to talk about them. Please, at least say something like, "You should check with your DM to see if this enhancement will let you ignore wind wall effects, since the spell is so absurdly good at shutting down archer concepts, which really doesn't make the game any fun."

An argument I might buy is that magic weapons aren't "normal ranged weapons" and so bypass it. What's absurd is the idea that an enhancement does something it doesn't say it does, and the only implications people can come up with to support it are that force isn't a projectile (since when the hell does a projectile have to be a solid object? take the standard fireball from any genre but D&D, a hurled sphere of flame - how is it not a projectile?) or that a thing changing causes it to lose all of its previous properties (becoming a force attack doesn't cause it to cease being an arrow, because the rules don't say it does) or that I'm relying on the word "arrow" being present (I'm actually not, because at no point was an acid arrow an object that wind wall affected that was then subject to a change that the rules never indicate interacts with wind wall, and the dude who mentioned marrow must be illiterate if he thinks that's a relevant argument).

Look, my argument is entirely falsifiable. Here is what will prove me wrong! A quote saying that force effects ignore wind wall, or ignore any effects of which wind wall is a part (so spells with the [Air] descriptor, for instance), or that "force attacks" is a specific term that excludes arrows, or that force effects cannot be deflected.

Anything else is as logical as saying that gentle repose can delay the onset of disease, since it clearly functions as an antimicrobial because it suspends rotting. Yeah, you can come up with an argument, but it's not evidence - it has no basis in the rules.
Bold part is incorrect. Why isn't it considered an arrow for wind wall? It calls itself out as an arrow in its name, under the effect line, and twice in its text. The arrow portion of wind wall doesn't give a fuck about anything else once an something is considered an arrow. That is of course the RAW reading of wind wall and in no way belongs in a game.
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Kethrian

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2011, 10:48:19 PM »
Actually, energy is defined in the rules. It's Fire/Cold/Lightning/Acid/Sonic. Nothing else is Energy.

Regardless, I do allow, and don't think it's so bad. But RAW does seem to be unclear.

RAW, I'd say this doesn't really work, since you're not supposed to guess at the effect.

Wrong, actually.  Negative energy, positive energy, and force are all still energy effects in the game.  They are non-standard ones, definitely, and are not covered under standard energy resists/immunities, but they are still typed as energy, because you can still HAVE resistance to them, instead of DR, which is for physical damage.

As for Wind Wall affecting "force projectiles", I would rule that since it no longer deals physical damage, it should no longer be treated as a physical projectile.  It can still affect physical targets and requires an attack roll to hit, so the 30% miss chance should still apply, as it should to any spell requiring a ranged (touch) attack, unless the spell creates boulders or the like (eg. Giant's Wrath).  But that's just my logic for a reasonable interpretation.

Now, what should happen if the force projectile enters an AMF?  Does it revert back into an arrow/bolt, or does it vanish entirely?

SorO_Lost

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2011, 11:17:44 PM »
Wrong, actually.  <snip>
It's not technically wrong. There is Energy (the defined five types), and energy (anything else like it). Trying to argue what is energy or isn't you need to define which energy you are discussing, and Cantrip is speaking of Energy, the defined entry.

since when the hell does a projectile have to be a solid object?
Since trekkies got into an argument over what is a phaser is?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2011, 11:25:27 PM »
Wrong, actually.  <snip>
It's not technically wrong. There is Energy (the defined five types), and energy (anything else like it). Trying to argue what is energy or isn't you need to define which energy you are discussing, and Cantrip is speaking of Energy, the defined entry.

So in other words, you're saying we are both right, because you assume he was referring only to the standard types?

SorO_Lost

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2011, 11:36:55 PM »
Wrong, actually.  <snip>
It's not technically wrong. There is Energy (the defined five types), and energy (anything else like it). Trying to argue what is energy or isn't you need to define which energy you are discussing, and Cantrip is speaking of Energy, the defined entry.

So in other words, you're saying we are both right, because you assume he was referring only to the standard types?
Yes I am ASS-U-ME-ing that when Cantrip bought up the definition of Energy and spoke of those five types he was talking about the one and only rules entry on Energy that talks about the five energy types. Just like when I seen your post I ASS-U-MEd you didn't ignore my reply from before just to post "you're wrong!" only to follow that up with "yeah I am right my assumer". Am I terrible at this?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2011, 11:55:18 PM »
Yes I am ASS-U-ME-ing that when Cantrip bought up the definition of Energy and spoke of those five types he was talking about the one and only rules entry on Energy that talks about the five energy types. Just like when I seen your post I ASS-U-MEd you didn't ignore my reply from before just to post "you're wrong!" only to follow that up with "yeah I am right my assumer". Am I terrible at this?

No, no, I understand what you're getting at.  When I started on my first reply, I had forgotten about your previous post, otherwise, I would've incorporated that into it, agreeing with you, for the most part.  It was just bad game development that added the others as energy types, but not clarifying them as such in the rules, even though they functionally are energy types.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2011, 01:25:37 AM »
You think that's bad. Special Abilities are Ex, Su, or Sp. But unmarked abilities are Na, further HP/skills/saves/bab/spells is totally untyped and could at best be called "Class Features" except for the glaring fact many monsters obtain with without Class levels.

Type casting in D&D was done by people who doodled during class while the real nerds were busy inventing the Internet at Star Trek conventions.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2011, 04:11:27 PM »
So the internet was invented at Star Trek conventions? Interesting :P
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2011, 05:00:00 PM »
Yeah, the nerds wanted more porn.
You shouldn't take this seriously btw.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2011, 08:07:14 PM »
An argument I might buy is that magic weapons aren't "normal ranged weapons" and so bypass it.

IIRC, Wind Wall stops all arrows and bolts, and only mention "normal ranged weapons" for the 30% miss chance part.

I do agree that the spell is absurd though, and I think I know how I'll play it.

I don't agree that Force Enchanted bows don't break wind wall, and I have already stated why.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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