Author Topic: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?  (Read 35543 times)

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skydragonknight

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2011, 02:03:39 PM »
Eh, it could go either way RAI depending on definition, so I should probably stop extending my arguments from covering RAI cases.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2011, 02:09:53 PM »
Quote from: Force enhancement
A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack. These force projectiles automatically overcome damage reduction and suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets, but they don't damage creatures immune to force effects. Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition.

"These force projectiles" implies either a physical object or that the attack maintains its form of an arrow/bolt. Also "Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition" implies that force arrows are still ammunition.
Projectiles implies it is a physical object while defining it as a force attack states it is not. Even if it maintains the form of an arrow/bolt it is still not an arrow/bolt it is an attack. The ammunition line is reiterating that the damage doesn't change and that it does consume the appropriate ammo for that weapon.

edit: seeing your statement while i was making my response I'll leave this here but I think we agree the rule is ambiguous and should likely fall to the table to decide which way they want it to go.
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snakeman830

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2011, 02:15:10 PM »
Since when is "Force attack" not something physical?  Orb of Force creates Force (which is a "force attack").  Spiritual Weapon creates a weapon made of Force.

How does "Force attack" suddenly make it non-physical?  Is it because of the term "attack"?   Hey!  Melee attacks and ranged attacks are now non-physical!

Wait, that can't be right.  The arrow is the attack, even normally.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 02:16:48 PM by snakeman830 »
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2011, 02:31:55 PM »
Since when is "Force attack" not something physical?  Orb of Force creates Force (which is a "force attack").  Spiritual Weapon creates a weapon made of Force.

How does "Force attack" suddenly make it non-physical?  Is it because of the term "attack"?   Hey!  Melee attacks and ranged attacks are now non-physical!

Wait, that can't be right.  The arrow is the attack, even normally.
Would it be any different if the force enchantment were instead making it acid, fire, how about sonic? Should it have an effect on the orb spells, they are just projectiles too? If you say they aren't normal projectiles they you have to have all magic weapons ignore wind wall as they aren't normal either.

Force is an energy type it is not physical, though it does cause physical effects.

I know allowing non-casters to have nice things is against the unwritten rules of the game but come on.
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CantripN

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2011, 02:33:36 PM »
Actually, energy is defined in the rules. It's Fire/Cold/Lightning/Acid/Sonic. Nothing else is Energy.

Regardless, I do allow, and don't think it's so bad. But RAW does seem to be unclear.

RAW, I'd say this doesn't really work, since you're not supposed to guess at the effect.
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StreamOfTheSky

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2011, 03:17:16 PM »
I'm really confused, is this a thread of people just looking for the absolute RAW answer, knowing full well it's idiotic and unbalanced, just out of curiosity, with no intent of actually using said RAW if it ends up proving to be stupid?  Or is this a bunch of people who seriously want a 3rd level spell that can't even stop rocks you pick up off the ground 70% of the time to be able to completely neuter entire weapon schools with no possible way of countering it, even if paying tens of thousands of gold on magic to do so?

Quote from: Force enhancement
A projectile weapon with the force property turns ammunition shot from it into a force attack. These force projectiles automatically overcome damage reduction and suffer no miss chance against incorporeal targets, but they don't damage creatures immune to force effects. Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition.

"These force projectiles" implies either a physical object or that the attack maintains its form of an arrow/bolt. Also "Ammunition shot from a force weapon deals the same amount of damage as normal ammunition" implies that force arrows are still ammunition.

Quote

So, are you going to argue that the term "projectile" ties an attack to being physical anymore than the term "missile" does?

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2011, 03:38:14 PM »
I'm really confused, is this a thread of people just looking for the absolute RAW answer, knowing full well it's idiotic and unbalanced, just out of curiosity, with no intent of actually using said RAW if it ends up proving to be stupid?  Or is this a bunch of people who seriously want a 3rd level spell that can't even stop rocks you pick up off the ground 70% of the time to be able to completely neuter entire weapon schools with no possible way of countering it, even if paying tens of thousands of gold on magic to do so?
But you don't understand! There is someone who is wrong on the internet!!!11!!  ;)

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Kajhera

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2011, 04:19:29 PM »
There is a material made mostly out of force, specifically out of force and water. It is called Riverine. If that has any bearings on discussion of whether force is physical or not...

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2011, 04:28:53 PM »
If I shot a dog out of a bow and called it an arrow, it wouldn't be affected by windwall.
But what if the dog was called Bolt?
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2011, 04:38:22 PM »
Actually on reading a bit closer if we are going to go with wind wall stopping force arrows it has to stop acid arrow as well. Acid arrow is a physical object [conjuration (creation) effect] and it explicitly calls itself as an arrow "A magical arrow of acid". It requires an attack roll to hit and is a projectile. The only reason wind wall wouldn't apply is the lame excuse it is a spell.

I don't have unicorn arrow at hand so I can't see if it breaks down the same way.

If I shot a dog out of a bow and called it an arrow, it wouldn't be affected by windwall.
But what if the dog was called Bolt?
Correct, if he leaps at you his ass is deflected upward.
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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2011, 05:25:12 PM »
To clarify. My last post rebuttaled the reasoning of skydragon, not the outcome. It is a known fact the opening sentence only shows intent but cannot be counted as rules. The opening statement is the arrow is turned into a force attack, the following lines explains the mechanical changes of the ability where is still refers to it as both a projectile and ammunition.

If I shot a dog out of a bow and called it an arrow, it wouldn't be affected by windwall.
aka, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet." which is to say the exact word used has less value than the sentence as a whole. The problem is only the first line gives any real support and I cannot accept that given that first liners (powerful build, dread neco, precocious apprentice) have been proven wrong time and time again and even have Sage support.

btw, Wind Wall notes It is a roaring blast sufficient to blow away any bird smaller than an eagle, and there are only two of them in the states, the obvious one (Bald) weighs up to 15lbs. I hope you're shooting huskys.

Actually, energy is defined in the rules. It's Fire/Cold/Lightning/Acid/Sonic. Nothing else is Energy.
Kind of sort of yes and no. Damn WotC.

Energy as in the defined type is limited to those five types. However, the RC refers to Positive & Negative as energy, just not that kind of energy. So things turn into a big wtf for the most part. Light most likely falls into the latter, all the same traits but just not part of the cannon five.

But Force? RC refers to things as "force effects" but never defines them (bit of an oversight eh?) and the PHB also points to "force effects" which is at best defined as "Force effects (such as magic missile and wall of force)" & "force effects (for example, from the mage armor spell)". It's not really ad-hoc-ed into being energy at all. It is more of just an applied trait that allows you to hit incorporeal/ethereal creatures with it. Which when you think about it in that manner other things in turn become explained. For instance, you cannot share the same space with a Wall of Force (its material) unlike a Wall of Fire (its energy), or how Mage Armor gives bonuses to AC meaning it can block things (its material) but Field Shield and such only burn or prevent fire damage meaning material objects simply pass though it (all energy). So if you really really want to get into it, I suppose the first step would be to prove Force is really energy in a meaningful sense to begin with in.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2011, 05:32:16 PM »
The issue is Soro that they do have the initial italicized line before the line you are quoting. That is the initial fluff/description line. The first line you are referencing is stating the effect and the rest is explaining the implications of that effect.

edit: I wanted to make a logical consistency argument here. Lets take a 1st level wizard with a wand of wind wall and have him deal with 2 enemies. The first is an epic level archer using all the shenanigans to have hundreds of attacks a round. The second is a 1st level commoner with a sling and some rocks (deals 1d3 and cost 0gp). Guess who kills the wizard first if they can't close to melee. Anyone else see the problem (besides the archer not killing the commoner and using his sling to kill the wizard).
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 05:37:12 PM by archangel.arcanis »
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amalcon

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2011, 06:15:29 PM »
As the balance argument goes, I don't think you balance a core spell with a splatbook magic item enhancement.  This is not only because people might not play with the book in question.  More importantly, spells can be changed every day, but the Force enhancement may be bought only once.  The very threat of Wind Wall requires archers to get the Force enhancement, if that enhancement is what balances Wind Wall.  The Wizard doesn't even need to memorize it, because he knows that any archer foolish enough to risk being stopped by a level 3 spell won't be a challenge anyway.  No, the problem is that Wind Wall is overpowered in situations where archers can't tactically work around it.

As the rules go, the authors of the ability were clearly not thinking about wind.  This puts it clearly in "It's the DM's call" territory.  I'm actually more interested in the question of what happens when a force arrow is fired into an AMF.  Would it revert to a normal arrow, or would it cease to exist?  If it ceases to exist, then the existence of both is checkmate against pure archers, regardless of interpretation.  If they have a non-Force bow, use Wind Wall.  If they have a Force bow, use AMF.  If they have both, use both.

On the other hand, if it reverts to a normal arrow, then clearly Wind Wall should effect the Force arrow.

The_Laughing_Man

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2011, 06:21:34 PM »
The issue is Soro that they do have the initial italicized line before the line you are quoting. That is the initial fluff/description line. The first line you are referencing is stating the effect and the rest is explaining the implications of that effect.

edit: I wanted to make a logical consistency argument here. Lets take a 1st level wizard with a wand of wind wall and have him deal with 2 enemies. The first is an epic level archer using all the shenanigans to have hundreds of attacks a round. The second is a 1st level commoner with a sling and some rocks (deals 1d3 and cost 0gp). Guess who kills the wizard first if they can't close to melee. Anyone else see the problem (besides the archer not killing the commoner and using his sling to kill the wizard).

Unless he is shooting huskys of course.

...
If they have a non-Force bow, use Wind Wall.  If they have a Force bow, use AMF.  If they have both, use both.
...

EDIT: IIRC you'd have to be an initiate of mystra in order to use Wind Wall in AMF or use invoke magic.

amalcon

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2011, 06:25:41 PM »
You could cast the Wind Wall first, and just not stand centered in it.  Or use Archmage, or Extraordinary Spell Aim, or any number of options.

CantripN

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2011, 06:40:50 PM »
Forceward FTW.
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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2011, 08:20:52 PM »
The issue is Soro that they do have the initial italicized line before the line you are quoting. That is the initial fluff/description line. The first line you are referencing is stating the effect and the rest is explaining the implications of that effect.
It doesn't matter if the entry in question has a fluff line or not. The introduction part of the paragraph is what I am talking about and none of the things I cited ever cared what the fluff text may have said.

edit: I wanted to make a logical consistency argument here. Lets take a 1st level wizard with a wand of wind wall and have him deal with 2 enemies. The first is an epic level archer using all the shenanigans to have hundreds of attacks a round. The second is a 1st level commoner with a sling and some rocks (deals 1d3 and cost 0gp). Guess who kills the wizard first if they can't close to melee. Anyone else see the problem (besides the archer not killing the commoner and using his sling to kill the wizard).
And the point here is what? Are we supposed to be experts in aerodynamics? Am I to play the professor role and explain to you the rock has more mass while the arrow or explain how an arrow is designed to point in the path of least resistance making it more subject to the wind than a heavy ball?

An arrow's flight path is altered to a point it always misses, the heavier rock is pushed less and comes out to enough to miss 30% of the time, the three foot long and maybe 3/4 inch in diameter arrow (aka huge) is simply to big and ignores the wall anyway (as the wall & wind effects state). It fits physics, it fits the spell's description, and who in the hell doesn't use siege level weapons as an archer anyway?
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5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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lianightdemon

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »
Soulbow

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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2011, 10:04:46 PM »
Wind wall is a stupid spell. You'll get no argument from me, and I try to houserule it to be less obnoxious. What I'm talking about is people who say "Make that bow Force, so you have a way to deal with Wind wall" - that kind of authoritative statement is frustrating, because it tells me people haven't read the relevant rules but think they're qualified to talk about them. Please, at least say something like, "You should check with your DM to see if this enhancement will let you ignore wind wall effects, since the spell is so absurdly good at shutting down archer concepts, which really doesn't make the game any fun."

An argument I might buy is that magic weapons aren't "normal ranged weapons" and so bypass it. What's absurd is the idea that an enhancement does something it doesn't say it does, and the only implications people can come up with to support it are that force isn't a projectile (since when the hell does a projectile have to be a solid object? take the standard fireball from any genre but D&D, a hurled sphere of flame - how is it not a projectile?) or that a thing changing causes it to lose all of its previous properties (becoming a force attack doesn't cause it to cease being an arrow, because the rules don't say it does) or that I'm relying on the word "arrow" being present (I'm actually not, because at no point was an acid arrow an object that wind wall affected that was then subject to a change that the rules never indicate interacts with wind wall, and the dude who mentioned marrow must be illiterate if he thinks that's a relevant argument).

Look, my argument is entirely falsifiable. Here is what will prove me wrong! A quote saying that force effects ignore wind wall, or ignore any effects of which wind wall is a part (so spells with the [Air] descriptor, for instance), or that "force attacks" is a specific term that excludes arrows, or that force effects cannot be deflected.

Anything else is as logical as saying that gentle repose can delay the onset of disease, since it clearly functions as an antimicrobial because it suspends rotting. Yeah, you can come up with an argument, but it's not evidence - it has no basis in the rules.
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Re: Force Arrows Bypass Windwall?
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2011, 10:28:19 PM »
Would someone using the Invisible Needle Reserve Feat suffer a miss chance if firing through Wind Wall?

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