Author Topic: Weapon Balance revisited (Found It)  (Read 2200 times)

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nadaka

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Weapon Balance revisited (Found It)
« on: August 01, 2008, 10:06:06 PM »
I have been searching the archive with google and have no luck finding the thread where I dissected the core rules firearms to define an approximation of a formula assuming they were relatively balanced.

I can't log in to gleemax, so am unable to search for the more recently active thread.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

update: found it. Yahoo seems to index the archives more effectively than google.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-813979
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 10:41:48 PM by nadaka »

backstabbist

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Have you tried looking (the hard way or Google) in the ARCHIVE there?
When not specified, the gun is always a m1911
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5.7fn : Can a slug that only weighs 31gr still be called a slug?
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Countryborn

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Have you tried looking (the hard way or Google) in the ARCHIVE there?

Yep. My first post here was going to be about whether someone had ported the firearms equation to this board. Gleemax defeats my google-fu.
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CBattles6

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That's why it's helpful to write your rules in hard copy before posting them to the board.  If you notice, all my supplements are in .pdf form, not only allowing me to do a little bit of spitshine before I send them out to the masses, but also saving people the hassle of wading through 13 pages of changes and discussions to get to the rules.
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emissary666

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I tried to find it when I first read this, but alas, I could not find it. If you know the exact name of the thread I will try once more.
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nadaka

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I have attempted to google through the archive, but could not find any references.

I do have a secondary copy of the work on whats left of an old laptop. The harddrive had not completely failed the last time I checked, so it may still be recoverable. I'll see if I can get it out.

nadaka

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BINGO! googles algorithms don't seem to index the archives properly, but yahoo does.

Nadaka
03-22-07, 01:47 AM
I was looking about my hard-drive and discovered an old excel worksheet I was using a couple years ago to investigate the relative balance of firearms.

In this investigation, I made the following assumptions:
*personal firearms are supposed to be aproximately (but not exactly) balanced with each other.
*certain guns don't quite fit that power balance (g3 is the best rifle in the book, and the Desert Eagle/glock/barretta are the best pistols and shotguns do get the shaft).
*this does not take real life into account, only game statistics.
*yes, I may have over or undervalued certain attributes or effects.

Method:
determine value of each attribute or quality and add the sum together.
Damage: 10* average damage (2d6=7, 2d10=11, etc)
Crit: not accounted for
Range Increment: RI / 3
Rate of Fire: single=0, semi=10,auto=20,semi+auto=30
Magazine Capacity: ln(capacity) * 10, or if linked ln(100)*10= 46.05...
Size: tiny=35,small=30,med=20,large=-5,huge=-15
weight: - (ln(weight) * 10)
PDC: -(PDC/8*10)
Restriction: -10 per point of restriction
Specials:
*InternalMagazine=-5
*Masterwork=+10
*3RoundBurst=+5
*AcceptLargerMagazine=+5
*FreeUseOfDoubleTap=+5
*integratedScope=+10

Results
Note that higher values denote a generally more useful weapon, lower values denote a generally less useful weapon. Special cases do occure that would shift the relative value of certain attributes (handguns are much less useful if you don't have to worry about concielment, etc.)
Code: [Select]
Hgun Avg 103.5022281
Larm Avg 96.82034368
Total Avg 100.0658304

Hgun Deviation 8.067284122
Larm Deviation 20.36493395
Total Deviation 14.63534814

Rifle Avg 108.7246348
Shotgun Avg 65.86918678
Rifle Deviation 9.883306829
Shotgun Deviation 5.75120753

Table:
Ranged Weapons Average Damage CRIT CRIT DAMAGE TYPE Range Increment Rate of Fire Magazine Weapon Size Weapon Weight Purchas DC Restriction SPE Total Value Special Notes
Weapon DMG DMG VAL TYPE VAL TYPE VAL RI VAL ROF VAL CAP VAL SIZE VAL WHT VAL PDC VAL RES VAL VAL
Beretta 92F (9mm autoloader) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S 10 15 27.0805 Small 30 3 -10.986 16 -20 1 -10 109.4277125
Beretta 93R (9mm machine pistol) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S,A 30 20 29.9573 Med 20 3 -10.986 18 -22.5 2 -20 5 111.4711998 3rnd burst
Colt Double Eagle (10mm autoloader) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 9 21.9722 Small 30 3 -10.986 16 -20 1 -10 100.9861229
Colt M1911 (.45 autoloader) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 7 19.4591 Small 30 3 -10.986 15 -18.75 1 -10 99.7229786
Colt Python (.357 revolver) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S 10 6 17.9176 Med 20 3 -10.986 15 -18.75 1 -10 10 101.5148051 MW +1
Derringer (.45) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 10 3.33333 Single 0 2 6.93147 Tiny 35 1 0 14 -17.5 1 -10 -5 82.76480514 int mag
Desert Eagle (.50AE autoloader) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S 10 8 20.7944 Med 20 4 -13.862 18 -22.5 1 -10 107.7648051
Glock 17 (9mm autoloader) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 17 28.3321 Small 30 2 -6.9314 18 -22.5 1 -10 10 118.9006616 MW +1
Glock 20 (10mm autoloader) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S 10 15 27.0805 Small 30 3 -10.986 18 -22.5 1 -10 10 116.9277125 MW +1
MAC Ingram M10 (.45 machine pistol) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S,A 30 30 34.0120 Med 20 6 -17.917 15 -18.75 2 -20 110.6777125
Pathfinder (.22 revolver) 2d4 5 50 20 0 Ball 0 20 6.66667 S 10 6 17.9176 Tiny 35 1 0 14 -17.5 1 -10 92.08426136
Ruger Service-Six (.38S revolver) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 6 17.9176 Small 30 2 -6.9315 14 -17.5 1 -10 103.4861229
S&W M29 (.44 magnum revolver) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 6 17.9176 Med 20 3 -10.986 15 -18.75 1 -10 108.1814718
SITES M9 (9mm autoloader) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 8 20.7944 Tiny 35 2 -6.9315 15 -18.75 1 -10 110.1129436
Skorpion (.32 machine pistol) 2d4 5 50 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S,A 30 20 29.9573 Med 20 4 -13.863 17 -21.25 2 -20 88.17771246
TEC-9 (9mm machine pistol) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S or A 20 32 34.6574 Med 20 4 -13.863 14 -17.5 2 -20 106.6277488
Walther PPK (.32 autoloader) 2d4 5 50 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 7 19.4591 Small 30 1 0 15 -18.75 1 -10 90.70910149
AKM/AK-47 (7.62mmR assault rifle) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 70 23.3333 S,A 30 30 34.0120 Large -5 10 -23.026 15 -18.75 2 -20 110.5694562
Barrett Light Fifty (.50 sniper rifle) 2d12 13 130 20 0 Ball 0 120 40 S 10 11 23.9790 Huge -15 35 -35.553 22 -27.5 1 -10 115.9254721
HK G3 (7.62mm assault rifle) 2d10 11 110 20 0 Ball 0 90 30 S,A 30 20 29.9573 Large -5 11 -23.979 19 -23.75 2 -20 127.22837
HK MP5 (9mm submachine gun) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 50 16.6667 S,A 30 30 34.0120 Large -5 7 -19.460 20 -25 2 -20 15 96.21953899 MW +1, 3rnd burst
HK MP5K (9mm submachine gun) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S,A 30 15 27.0805 Med 20 5 -16.094 19 -23.75 2 -20 10 110.5694562 3rnd burst, accepts 30rnd magazines
HK PSG1 (7.62mm sniper rifle) 2d10 11 110 20 0 Ball 0 90 30 S 10 5 16.0944 Large -5 16 -27.726 22 -27.5 1 -10 20 115.8684919 MW +1, integrated scope
M16A2 (5.56mm assault rifle) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 80 26.6667 S,A 30 30 34.0120 Large -5 8 -20.794 16 -20 2 -20 5 119.8842251 3rnd burst
M4 Carbine (5.56mm assault rifle) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 60 20 S,A 30 30 34.0120 Large -5 7 -19.460 16 -20 2 -20 109.5528723
M-60 (medium machine gun) 2d10 11 110 20 0 Ball 0 100 33.3333 A 20 100 46.0517 Large -5 22 -30.910 21 -26.25 3 -30 117.2246107
Remington 700 (7.62mm hunting rifle) 2d10 11 110 20 0 Ball 0 80 26.6667 Single 0 5 16.0944 Large -5 8 -20.794 17 -21.25 1 -10 -5 90.71663037 int mag
Steyr AUG (5.56mm assault rifle) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 80 26.6667 S,A 30 30 34.0120 Large -5 9 -21.972 19 -23.75 2 -20 5 114.9563947 3rnd burst
Uzi (9mm submachine gun) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S,A 30 20 29.9573 large -5 8 -20.794 18 -22.5 2 -20 74.99624065
Winchester 94 (.444 hunting rifle) 2d10 11 110 20 0 Ball 0 90 30 S 10 6 17.9176 Large -5 7 -19.459 15 -18.75 1 -10 -5 109.7084932 int mag
Benelli 121 M1 (12-gague shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S 10 7 19.4591 Large -5 8 -20.794 17 -21.25 1 -10 -5 70.74801941 int mag
Beretta M3P (12-gauge shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 5 16.0944 Large -5 9 -21.972 16 -20 1 -10 0 69.12213335
Browning BPS (10-gauge shotgun) 2d10 11 110 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 Single 0 5 16.0944 Large -5 11 -23.979 16 -20 1 -10 -5 72.1154264 int mag
Mossberg (12-gauge shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 Single 0 6 17.9176 Large -5 7 -19.459 15 -18.75 1 -10 -5 59.7084932 int mag
Sawed-off shotgun (12-ga shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 10 3.33333 S 10 2 6.93147 Med 20 4 -13.863 15 -18.75 4 -40 0 57.65186153 int mag, dbl tap

any thoughts? comments? etc?

Quote from: AAB 03-22-07, 01:57 AM
all i can really see in all those numbers is that shotguns got the shaft.
Nadaka
03-22-07, 02:14 AM
That is one obvious conclusion to draw. Most people would find the little chart to be a more useful as it clearly shows how "all those numbers" relate.

Assuming that my assumptions and methods are valid, one could use this to test the relative balance of other weapons or even homebrew weapons...

For instance the FiveseveN as statted in weapons locker:
Code: [Select]
Table:
Ranged Weapons Average Damage CRIT CRIT DAMAGE TYPE Range Increment Rate of Fire Magazine Weapon Size Weapon Weight Purchas DC Restriction SPE Total Value Special Notes
Weapon DMG DMG VAL TYPE VAL TYPE VAL RI VAL ROF VAL CAP VAL SIZE VAL WHT VAL PDC VAL RES VAL VAL
FiveseveN (5.7mm autoloader) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S 10 20 29.9573 Small 30 1 0 19 -23.75 1 -10 0 139.5406561

With a score of nearly 140, it is far above any of the core firearms by a wide margin.
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 02:20 AM
yeah, i use it as 2d6, and that gives it about 119. still high, but not ridiculously so.

good formula, i think.
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 02:35 AM
interestingly enough, the beowulf at 2d12 is closer to the average than the 5.7 at 2d6.
Quote from: dapilky
03-22-07, 06:41 AM
all i can really see in all those numbers is that shotguns got the shaft.


Actually, this system is not great for evaluating different types of fire arms. I think it is a great system for balancinging handguns with handguns machineguns with machine guns etc, but to use it for comparing different types of arms is a little less acurate.

If you look closely at the ctriterian, you will see that some weapons are penalized because of their nature. The point system penalized internal magazines for example. Well most shot guns have that. Thus most shotguns are now down 5 points simply because of their nature, versus the nature of most pistols. This creates a scientifically unbalanced look at weapons when comparing them to wea[pons of an entirely different catagory..

Like I said, this is a great system for comparing like fire arms, but it unfairly penalizes a weapon against other weapon types.
Nadaka
03-22-07, 09:20 AM
Given two otherwise identical weapons, would you rather take the one that can be reloaded as a move action and still leave time for an attack? or the one that takes a full combat round?

Internal magazines take longer to reload. Therefore they are marginally less useful than interchangable magazine weapons. To say it unfairly penalizes some weapons is not quite correct. Perhaps it overpenalizes in this case due to play style differences, but generally longer reload time is worth some difference.


but yes, the fewer the differences between two given weapons, the easier it is to judge thier balance (in cases where they are not extremely disproportional). This is the case when eyeballing or when using a codified method. However, this is intended to be a general system that takes all statistics into account.
Quote from: backstabbist
03-22-07, 10:46 AM
*this does not take real life into account, only game statistics.
see, now that was a good idea... make it clear up front to avoid folks like me dragging 'IRL' around too much as off topic.

If benefits add up, and detriments are negative numbers, why is increasing weight of the gun a benefit of Weight *10 ? Wouldnt lighter guns be better than heavier guns, or in the realm of scale, the same gun would be beter if it weighed less rather than a given gun getting better by weighing more

adding 40 to 100 points for a gun just being heavier than its class ( like a 7.62 M14/G3/FAL vs a ww2 BAR or M60)


edit: Oh, btw, Bravo on your work. Good stuff
Nadaka
03-22-07, 12:16 PM
dho! you are right, in the spreadsheet there is a minus sign. I guess I typoed it in the method description.

edit: It should be fixed now.
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 12:23 PM
wow. i used your formula on a SPAS 12 using 2d10 for 12-gauge damage and the result was still only a score of 88.5

shotguns got originally got ****ed.
Quote from: backstabbist
03-22-07, 12:41 PM
I dont see a modifier for the Range Inc Rules shotguns get, whichever you fancy.

Take the -1 per RI instead of -2 rule, how would that factor in if we get RI/3 points for range consideration?

Would we double the range points to simulate the range that the shotgun would be -2 at, like the rifle range its -2 at is 1 RI ?
Rifle: , RI = 80', -2 at 80', gets RI/3 = 27 points
Shotty: RI = 40', -2 at 80' , gets 'Shotgun2x' RI/3 = 27 points instead of 13

or some other consideration for any shotgun rules folks use
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 12:43 PM
yeah, i'd like to see some good mathematical representation of my favorite: -2 to damage per range inc

how did you come up with the point value of specific traits?
Nadaka
03-22-07, 12:48 PM
Note: I also messed up the sign on the PDC value, it is subtracted rather than added. Should be fixed now.

I should note that I did not evaluate shotgun special range increment rules in the current incarnation of the rules.

Though the flexibility of choosing either -2 to hit with a slug or -1 to hit, -1 to damage (bullet point rule variation) with buck shot might be worth a a few points (probably 5). If you did that and upped damage to by 1 die step it would bring the shotgun average up to 90+change.

If my method is accurate, one could add an additional +1 to hit for an extra +10 points when using shot on top of the above houserules and shotguns would be relatively balanced with the rest of the core weapons.

anyone have opinions on this? By the system shotguns should be very balanced with those changes. If these changes do seem balanced it would be a point in favor of the system being at least a reasonable approximation.

edit: re: how to come up with point values for special traits? Guess in most cases. Masterwork +1 to hit is valued at 10 because it has the same effective cost as masterwork +1 damage, and +1 damage gives 10 points. The others are valued at +/-5 because its a nice workable number and didn't seem to far off.
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 12:55 PM
but with the logarithms and everything? it seems so complex.
Nadaka
03-22-07, 01:05 PM
This isn't something one pulls out at every game session, and the logarithms can be calculated automatically with a spreadsheet (its what I do). They are also used on two statistics where there is diminishing returns (IMO) on a numerical value.

Is the difference between 6 rounds and 16 the same as the difference between 40 rounds and 50? not really. Likewise with weight the difference between a 2 lb and 4lb gun is more significant than the difference between a 10 lb and a 12 lb gun. Of course this is my opinion and one could come up with a different method that also approximates balance.

Wow, this thread is moving a bit faster than I have anticipated.
Quote from: backstabbist
03-22-07, 01:13 PM
so are you saying the numbers work, if you apply all the apropriate mods, so no extra Shotgun mod is needed, or you are going with a new Shotgun mod?

Either way, perhaps a paragraph of text on adjucating shotguns, kinda like instructions, so folks wont mess up working in shotgun rules they use... maybe like a check list of modifiers that may or maynot apply.

and yes, its not like we have to recalc the table every round of combat. Work it up a day or two before the game, and it stays put.
Nadaka
03-22-07, 01:23 PM
so are you saying the numbers work, if you apply all the apropriate mods, so no extra Shotgun mod is needed, or you are going with a new Shotgun mod?

Either way, perhaps a paragraph of text on adjucating shotguns, kinda like instructions, so folks wont mess up working in shotgun rules they use... maybe like a check list of modifiers that may or maynot apply.

and yes, its not like we have to recalc the table every round of combat. Work it up a day or two before the game, and it stays put.

Well, what I was suggesting is that if the alternate range modifier options are worth 5 points (guessed), and a +1 die step is worth +20 points (it is), and a +1 to hit while using shot is worth 10 points (based on the masterwork value) that would bring the average score for shotguns from ~65 to ~100. The question I was trying to ask is if the sum of these specific modifications would make shotguns relatively desirable compared to other firearms? If so, this is the case then it would lend some additional support that in general these rules can accurately reflect balance among firearms considering that my average value is 100.
Quote from: backstabbist
03-22-07, 01:30 PM
true, but I will abstain from that question: I have a severe bias against giving 2d12 to anything that is not a frickin cannon, and your system is pretty darn good if I dont consider the upping the 10ga
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 01:41 PM
as of right now the 10-gauge has a score of 76 on this scale. if we bump up all 12-gauge damage but not this one it'd easily be the worst weapon available.

EDIT: sorry, i was looking at a different 10-gauge from the one in the CRB. still bad, though.
Nadaka
03-22-07, 01:47 PM
true, but I will abstain from that question: I have a severe bias against giving 2d12 to anything that is not a frickin cannon, and your system is pretty darn good if I dont consider the upping the 10ga

if you leave the 10 gauge at 2d10 but the 12 gauge up to 2d10 as well, while providing the other modifications to all shotguns you still get an average shotgun rating of just under 97% balanced.

edit: also forgot to mention I valued an integrated scope at 10 points.
I chose this value because its the average range increment is 48 with a value of 16, since the scope increases it by 50% it gives 8, + the fact that it costs no PDC unlike a standard scope and it bumps it up a little at well.
Quote from: dapilky
03-22-07, 02:58 PM
Given two otherwise identical weapons, would you rather take the one that can be reloaded as a move action and still leave time for an attack? or the one that takes a full combat round?

Internal magazines take longer to reload. Therefore they are marginally less useful than interchangable magazine weapons. To say it unfairly penalizes some weapons is not quite correct. Perhaps it overpenalizes in this case due to play style differences, but generally longer reload time is worth some difference.


but yes, the fewer the differences between two given weapons, the easier it is to judge thier balance (in cases where they are not extremely disproportional). This is the case when eyeballing or when using a codified method. However, this is intended to be a general system that takes all statistics into account.


But using this to judge balance between two completely different classes of weapon is not useful. Absolutely judging between two shotguns using this method is perfect. But you need a more balanced set of criteria would allow you to balancxe between shotguns and assualt rifles.

That was my only point.

I know that a shotgun doesn't do the same things as a small handgun or a fully automatic machine gun, if that was your point then fine, but just because they aren't the same or can't do the same things doesn't mean they are unbalanced.

A shotgun doesn't have the size benefit of the handgun or the automatic fire abil;ity of the assualt rifle, which is the big difference here.

Your system gives a bonus for size and a bvonus for fully auto that off set, so obviously an asualt rifle and handgun will be "balanced" with a machine gun. But since shotguns gain neither bonus, they will be 30 points below both of the others.

Perhaps finding something that gives a benefit for something the shotgun can do that equals the other two bonuses, you would find a balance.
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 03:01 PM
i disagree. this IS useful if all you care about is game balance.
Quote from: dapilky
03-22-07, 03:05 PM
i disagree. this IS useful if all you care about is game balance.

My edit should show you how this method is skewed to be biased against shot guns. Since there is no bonus for anything the shotgun can do that the others can't then obviously you will find it skewed.

Now, if you can't find something beneficial to a shot gun, you should think about the legality of the weapon, or a possible house rule that makes the shotgun real useful at short distances for having the scattered pellets effect.
Quote from: AAB
03-22-07, 03:16 PM
this method isn't skewed against shotguns. this is a measurement of a weapon's utility in-game. it's the game that hates the shotties.
Quote from: backstabbist
03-22-07, 03:17 PM
Dapikly-
That's what I was saying- you have to incorporate/include all the adjustments for the varius houserules shotguns get with different folks. If you HR that they get a better chance of hitting, you get points for the plusses like MW... if you HR less damage, you have to modify the Average Damage * 10 points you get.... If you HR range, then modify it for that too.

There are just way to many houserules for various ways to handle shotgun to put one formula up for all shotguns in all players games. Apply the point rules as per the Shotgun HR effects you get, that your group uses.
Nadaka
03-22-07, 04:00 PM
But using this to judge balance between two completely different classes of weapon is not useful. Absolutely judging between two shotguns using this method is perfect. But you need a more balanced set of criteria would allow you to balancxe between shotguns and assualt rifles.

That was my only point.

I know that a shotgun doesn't do the same things as a small handgun or a fully automatic machine gun, if that was your point then fine, but just because they aren't the same or can't do the same things doesn't mean they are unbalanced.

A shotgun doesn't have the size benefit of the handgun or the automatic fire abil;ity of the assualt rifle, which is the big difference here.

Your system gives a bonus for size and a bvonus for fully auto that off set, so obviously an asualt rifle and handgun will be "balanced" with a machine gun. But since shotguns gain neither bonus, they will be 30 points below both of the others.

Perhaps finding something that gives a benefit for something the shotgun can do that equals the other two bonuses, you would find a balance.

actually the autofire bonus is mostly offset by the increase in restriction of the weapon.
The thing that offsites the size bonus of handguns is the increased damage range and magazine capacity of most longarms. Note that the shotgun does not recieve 2 of those benifits.

shotguns have the same legality as any handgun or hunting rifle, licence +1. Its already factored in.

lets look at a couple of very similar weapons shall we?
The winchester 94 and the browning bps...
both deal the same damage.
both have the same crit.
both have the same damage type.
both are size large.
both have the same restriction.
both have internal magazines.
the BPS has a range increment 60ft less than 94
the BPS has a single rate of fire vs the semi of the 94
the BPS has 1 less magazine capacity than the 94
the BPS is 11 lbs while the 94 is 7
the BPS is 1 PDC more expensive than the 94
by default the BPS takes -2 to hit and -1 to damage at every range increment, while the 94 is only -2 to hit. Note that I didn't even take this as a penalty, I simple assumed that people would use the bullet points alternate rule instead where the penalties are more balanced.

What "value" are you talking about that makes this comparison invalid? Is there any way in that the example shotgun is better than the example rifle? Is there ever any mechanical reason to choose the shotgun without houserules? Houserules that would have their own point values and change the effective score of the shotguns anyway?

Unless you think the bullet point alternate rule that shotguns the option of -1 to hit and -1 to damage per range increment instead of the cost identical -2 to hit is worth 30 or 40 points, then your arguement is invalid. Especially when you consider that for every -2 to hit the winchester gets at a given range, the shotgun gets a -3 to hit and -3 to damage even with the alternate rule.


and RE logarithms: one can easilly make a logarithm table to look up on if you don't normally have a calculator handy.

and a final note of something I forgot to mention:
the m60, there was an errate that reduced its size category to large, and i valued its linked ammo feed as if it had a 100 round interchangable magazine.

I think this system is very, very good at comparing shotguns to other firearms because it clearly demonstrates the flaws that they have.
Quote from: dapilky
03-23-07, 06:39 AM
You just illustrated my point. A hunting rifle and a shotgun are very similar, and thus you cabn use your system to compare the two. But a using it to say there is no balance between a shotgun and a m1911.

I agree with your premise that shotguns suck. I am just saying that proving it by saying it is not the same thing as an m60 or an m1911 is not the best way.

But, I did read it slightly more carefully and realised that you were using rifle, which I assume by that you mean hunting rifles and the like and not assualt rifles, in that case I am incorrect. That was something I missunderstood. I hope you understand that I was saying comparing a bps to an m16 would obviously show a disparity using your system.

The misunderstanding occured because I thought you were saying that look, it was way underscored compared to the average fully auto rifle.
Nadaka
03-23-07, 09:01 AM
I am having a real hand time understanding your rational. Could you explain it?

Firearms are a collection of attributes in modern.
One can directly compare each of these attributes between different firearms.
One can assign an aproximate value to the relative worth of specific attributes.
Then you can evaluate the sum of those attributes between different firearms.

Are you arguing that the aproximate values I have chosen are incorrect? Feel free to offer alternatives. I picked the values I did because they work for me, it was just a nice coincidence that they added up to an average of 100.

I'll accept you challenge, ill compare a 1911 to a shotgun
Code: [Select]
Table:
Ranged Weapons Average Damage CRIT CRIT DAMAGE TYPE Range Increment Rate of Fire Magazine Weapon Size Weapon Weight Purchas DC Restriction SPE Total Value Special Notes
Weapon DMG DMG VAL TYPE VAL TYPE VAL RI VAL ROF VAL CAP VAL SIZE VAL WHT VAL PDC VAL RES VAL VAL
Colt M1911 (.45 autoloader) 2d6 7 70 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 7 19.4591 Small 30 3 -10.986 15 -18.75 1 -10 0 99.7229786
Benelli 121 M1 (12-gague shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 40 13.3333 S 10 7 19.4591 Large -5 8 -20.794 17 -21.25 1 -10 -5 70.74801941
Beretta M3P (12-gauge shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 S 10 5 16.0944 Large -5 9 -21.972 16 -20 1 -10 0 69.12213335
Browning BPS (10-gauge shotgun) 2d10 11 110 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 Single 0 5 16.0944 Large -5 11 -23.979 16 -20 1 -10 -5 72.1154264
Mossberg (12-gauge shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 30 10 Single 0 6 17.9176 Large -5 7 -19.459 15 -18.75 1 -10 -5 59.7084932
Sawed-off shotgun (12-ga shotgun) 2d8 9 90 20 0 Ball 0 10 3.33333 S 10 2 6.93147 Med 20 4 -13.863 15 -18.75 4 -40 0 57.65186153

alright, the 1911 has less damage.
it also has higher magazine capacity than all but the 121 M1 that it equals.
it is small, so it can be carried hidden unlike all but the sawed off that it gets a +4 to hide vs, can be twf at a lesser penalty than the sawed off.
it weighs less than all
it has an interchangable magazine, unlike all but the M3P that it equals
its PDC is less than all but the sawed off shotgun.
its restriction is 1 vs the 4 of the sawed off and equals all the others.
its 30ft range meets or exceeds every shotgun but the 121 M1.
its ROF is semi that equals or exceedes the ROF of all shotguns.

In every case except damage and range (in 1 case) it meets or exceeds the attributes of all shotguns. You can not argue with this assertion. The 1911 gets a big boost from its size and a lesser (about 10 points) from its weight.

remember how I made the assumption all the way at the beginning that firearms are generally supposed to be balanced? To roughly balance handguns with longarms, the size difference between the two needs to be highly valued... and I did just that.

Besides that arbitrary reason, size category is a significant statistic. You may not think that being able to hide a gun on your person, use twf, fight while one hand is being used to hold a rope or something else, or carry a backup that doesn't shift a normal person to the next encumberance category is important if you run a army campaign with str18 supersoldiers with mecha, jetpacks or mutant extra limbs. But most of us don't run that campaign.

The method is good. You just might need to adjust the worth values to fit you campaign style (though you may have to throw out the "weapons are supposed to have roughly balanced scores for core weapons" assumption.
Quote from: dapilky
03-23-07, 02:03 PM
All I was saying was that using your system to compare different types of fire arms was not scientifically sound.

But when comparing like fire arms, a shot gun and rifle to each other, a pistol and another kind of pistol, it is sound.

The only reason you found a closeness between automatic rifles and pistols was that the bonus you gave for size offset the bonus you gave for being automatic. Thus it appears as if you can use it to compare different types of fire arms, that is not true.

I agree that shotguns suck, but your method while really cool and useful, doesn't necessarily point that out. What it points out is that the d20 system didn't take in to account any characteristics of shotguns in their system. Thus you have no special quality you can quantify on your system, like a bomus for short range burst coverage of pellets or the like.

This all started because I misread your columns. I thought you were directly comparing the scores you gave for say an m1911 with the scores of a shotgun, and the score for an m16. This you did not do. Until I made you. My only point was that trying to use your system to compare handguns with assualt rifles and shotguns was a little unsound.

Your specific method has offsets for size and automatic which make the scores similar between small arms and assualt rifles. But since neither bonus can be applied to shotguns, that is exactly where the point difference lies. You will notice that for the most part, if you got rid of the bonus for auto fire, and for size, you would have only a small descrepency in all weapons based solely on individual characteristics. A descrepency that is there even between like fire arms.
Quote from: AAB
03-23-07, 02:10 PM
the goal of this system seems to be balancing the weapon lists so that every weapon MIGHT have a player that wants to use it. it's like in DnD when you compare a longsword and a greataxe. a longsword has a 19-20 threat range, so the greataxe has x3 to compensate. the greataxe does more damage, but requires two hands to use, so you cannot also use a shield. outside of the rules they are very different weapons, but inside the game they are balanced with one another.
Nadaka
12-12-07, 08:59 PM
A necromancer walks into the forum and casts: Raise Thread!

Nothing further to add. But I should be able to do gaming related stuff once again soon.
Quote from: NCLanceman
12-12-07, 11:08 PM
Do have that actual Excel file somewhere? I'm dyin to know if some adjustments to damage i've been thinking of would balance out stuff, namely the .45 and 12G.
Quote from: nobodez_here
12-13-07, 01:56 PM
This does look like some interesting information, and I'd love to have the excel sheet, if only to adjust it for the shotgun modifications outlined on the first page.

I'd also love to use it to compare other weapons, like the Weapons Locker weapons, or the d20 Future weapons (which would need to have an added PL adjustment).
Nadaka
12-13-07, 03:52 PM
Here is the excel file, it may take some fiddling with before you get it working to your own requirements.

http://www.nadaka.us/weapon_balance.xls

If that doesn't work try this one and right-click on the link to save as...

http://www.nadaka.us/WEAPON_BALANCE.html
« Last Edit: August 08, 2008, 10:22:49 PM by nadaka »

nemafow

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Re: Weapon Balance revisited (Found It)
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 01:10:11 AM »
That is a REALLY interesting formula you've made up there buddy.

I can't say I understand it very much but it seems to work!

Might punch in my house rule shotgun rules and see if they are on balance.
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Countryborn

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Re: Weapon Balance revisited (Found It)
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 08:15:18 PM »
Assault rifles =  :D
Shotguns =  :'(

Well, I was already using Johannixx's house rules for shotguns anyway. I should plug those in and see how they stack up.
"Leave the wounded and run" is a perfectly viable tactic.

nadaka

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Re: Weapon Balance revisited (Found It)
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2008, 10:24:10 PM »
Alright, I reformatted a lot of the information in the post with a transcript of the discussion, now it should be a lot more readable with formatted tables and quotes to distinguish between different users.