[Spell] Warp Speed - A new record?

[dman11235]

Tornado Throw: you can throw someone every 10'. while moving up to 2x your speed as a full round action.

[Kuroimaken]

Tornado Throw: you can throw someone every 10'. while moving up to 2x your speed as a full round action.

You know, we ARE still talking about someone who needs to be fueled with a bajillion spell levels for this to become abusable.

[Sinfire Titan]

Tornado Throw: you can throw someone every 10'. while moving up to 2x your speed as a full round action.

You know, we ARE still talking about someone who needs to be fueled with a bajillion spell levels for this to become abusable.

Compared to Chuck, who does the same thing in one round with one spell and a few feats.

Honestly, I don't think this is that abusable. Its nice, but the effort required to get it is costly. You basically need Leadership and a gaggle of Wizards behind you just to get a decent speed off of it without investing serious money into having others cast spells at you.

[Surreal]

Caedrus' original interpretation was that any spells absorbed will give you a permanent stackable speed boost. This would make it easily abuseable, and you'd hardly need that many casters to reach ridiculous highs. The more days you can spend absorbing spells, the higher it goes. Heck, a single Warlock 1 could permanently boost your speed by 5' every round.

The more conservative interpretation is that the speed boosts do not stack, and furthermore that the speed boost will wear off after time (most likely 1 minute, just like all the other boosts the template grants).

[Kuroimaken]

Caedrus' original interpretation was that any spells absorbed will give you a permanent stackable speed boost. This would make it easily abuseable, and you'd hardly need that many casters to reach ridiculous highs. The more days you can spend absorbing spells, the higher it goes. Heck, a single Warlock 1 could permanently boost your speed by 5' every round.

Is the Warlock's Eldritch Blast a SLA? I forget at the moment. If it's supernatural for any bizarre reason this doesn't work.

[Omen of Peace]

It's a SLA...

[Caedrus]

Greetings All!

Some very interesting reading on this topic. Obviously, one which many find contentious. Please assume that the following statements are said with the utmost respect and sincerity.

The game is always RAI as per the DM, and this will never fly with any DM. Infinite-anything is not supposed to happen. Game-breaking-anything is not supposed to happen.

I agree with Surreal on this one. While I am not in any way comparing this Khan's Pun-Pun or any such construction, I am interested in whether or not people believe that this would work. If it does, then there is, with respect to Kuroimaken, potential for abuse. A character capable of this speed has quite a few tactical options, and quite a few nasty tricks. The Jumplomancer springs to mind, mostly because it is one of my works. Infinite Speed can be converted into an infinite Diplomacy Check, for example.

On the word "Effect"

As stated before, The Rules Compendium (Pg 21, 'Bonuses' states that 'Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect.';

I think you may be looking at this the wrong way, Caedrus. You are assuming the speed increase is coming from the spell, but it isn't. The speed increase is coming from the same effect: The spellwarped creature's ability 'Spell Absorption.'  Since it is untyped, it would stack, except that it comes from the same effect each time, so it doesn't.

whereas

How would you classify the other effects from Spell Absorption then? Also, I can't specifically remember any other ability that does something similar. It's just a plain oddball to me; forgive me for saying this, but it doesn't appear as crystal-clear to me as it does to you.

on this matter, I agree with Kuroimaken. I can't find a definition of effect in a D&D context anywhere. And I have a personal dislike of reaching for the dictionary in these discussions. It quickly degenerates into semantics.

My logic is that the spell is having an effect on the Spellwarped, and that the Spell Absorption of a Spellwarped converts that into an increase in speed, hit points, etc.

I believe the supernatural ability of the Spellwarped is not the effect.

I believe that the spell that hits the Spellwarped is the effect.

And, from the Rules Compendium: 'Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect.' (Pg. 21)

I cannot think of a single instance anywhere else in the game where the ability or nature of a creature creates a situation that makes an effect (be it magic or any other) inherently unstackable, whereby (for example) a hundred different spells, from a hundred different casters would all be considered the same effect. To me, that just doesn't make sense.

What does make sense to me is that, since some of the other effects (those that increase abilities) have a type (enhancement) listed, that the intent was that these effects should be self-limiting.

I cannot see any limitation on the speed increase.

I agree with Surreal's statement that the speed should wear off over time, RAI. However, that is not what is stated. In the interests of incorporating this into a build, I cannot see a strong counterargument, at least in terms of RAW.

I do sincerely appreciate the responses - both for and against.

C.

[Callix]

There's a simple issue with that reading: a spell that fails to overcome Spell Resistance (of any sort) has no effect on that target. Spell Absorption has conditional bonuses that apply when a spell fails to overcome SR. They are not effects of the spell because the spell has no effect.

[Kuroimaken]

The Jumplomancer springs to mind, mostly because it is one of my works. Infinite Speed can be converted into an infinite Diplomacy Check, for example.

Yeah, but you don't seriously -need- an infinite diplomacy check. At +367 you're already converting a Prismatic Great Wyrm into your fanatical lawyer, and this guy has the strongest CR of the whole game. Tornado Throw would be way more believable in that respect.

on this matter, I agree with Kuroimaken.

Someone's... agreeing with me.  Give me a second while I hold the fabric of space-time together for a little while.

I can't find a definition of effect in a D&D context anywhere. And I have a personal dislike of reaching for the dictionary in these discussions. It quickly degenerates into semantics.

Semantics is often all we have for the purpose of discussing RAW. That said, I can't really find any such definition either. It's one of those "it should be obvious but in here it's not" kind of situations. And then there might be the argument about the supernatural nature of Spell Absorption, which may or may not matter for determining the purposes of whether the spells themselves would stack, but since there's no easy way to tell which one is the source of the effect, it quickly becomes a chicken and the egg situation.

[Nox_Noctis]

There's a simple issue with that reading: a spell that fails to overcome Spell Resistance (of any sort) has no effect on that target. Spell Absorption has conditional bonuses that apply when a spell fails to overcome SR. They are not effects of the spell because the spell has no effect.

I'm going to have to agree with this.

That is, it produces no effect on the creature. The failure to affect the creature, however, activates the ability, which does affect the creature (producing an effect, effecting a change, whatever way you want to phrase it).

[Vidar]

The Jumplomancer springs to mind.

I see what you did there, have some -fu for making a funny.

[skydragonknight]

Tornado Throw? You could throw them, run after tham, and throw them again as much as you want.

I believe activating Tornado Throw still requires an action, and that running up to someone to throw them again concludes your movement once you throw them again. I'm familiar with a RKV build that basically stacked Nightsticks to run up, throw, run up, throw until he ran out of actions and he launched his enemy into orbit, but it still required more than just the template.

NO NIGHTSTICKS WERE USED IN THE MAKING OF CHUCK. Granted he had just over 1000 Extra Turning feats from Dark Chaos feat swap on the Legacy feats he got from his Arrows of Legacy...
But that's besides the point. I don't use "broken" things like Nightsticks.

[SiggyDevil]

Well, hope you have Resistance to Einstein's Principles for when your mass in converted in to energy, Caedrus...

[altpersona]

who is this einstein you speak of?

[Negative Zero]

He's the big guy with the square head and bolts in his neck.

[altpersona]

oh ya, the corpse crafter, i forgot about him..