So I'm gonna stress test a single guy's dungeon... & now I have to op a party!

[Gavinfoxx]

So I offered to stress test a guys dungeon to the max with a single cohesive party....

And for some reason he has some strange requirements for the group for this stress test.  I'm still seeking out clarification, since I was under the impression that I would be testing it in a different way and under different assumptions than the 'normal' test, and I would be working under the assumptions that the presumable (other DM's?) would be running it...

But regardless, I need some ideas for the sort of group that can absolutely BLOW THROUGH a standard 'monster / traps / puzzle' sort of dungeon as in a 'series of tests'.

Here's the game thread, if it matters:

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/showthread.php?13896-%28WotC-D-amp-D-3.5%29-The-TEST-Dungeon

Here's the requirements as they stand currently:

"20k gold for each character(no sharing and you won't earn any money in dungeon(or be able to spend unspent money, so do not save it)). 32 point buy, Max HP. Any WotC book in 3.5 is good if you mention that you took from that and that page of that and that book.
You need to have one Heavy Dude, One Healer, One Rogue made for lockpickery/trap disarm. You can combine these. Party size - 4 characters.
Of course, making roleplay and having 4 different people would be more effective to test, but I will agree to you.
Each Character's Level 5. But you get level up after every of ten tests(well not after tenth as after ten it's game over) so you have plenty of area to improve and predict character's future. "

So any ideas what I should do for this? I'm thinking Crusader, Druid, Wizard, Cloistered Cleric, or maybe Crusader / Wizard / Druid / Factotum.  Thoughts? Maybe some psionics or binding?

[JaronK]

A big one to test is whether a ToB class can just Mountain Hammer through the place.  Consider a really high damage build for the steamroller effect... a nice charger should get the job done.

JaronK

[Gavinfoxx]

So Mountain Hammer Shock Trooper charge build, check.  I suppose he can do the full plate... ack, Warblade and barbarian doesn't get heavy armor proficiency, apparently I need at least 5 armor check penalty, until he changes those requirements...

[X-Codes]

Incorporate a level of Cleric for future progression into Ordained Champion?

[Endarire]

"BRUTE"
Dragonborn Water Nezumi (or plain ol' Raptoran if you can't use Oriental Adventures)

WhirlPounce Barbarian1/Cloistered Cleric1 (Time Domain, Travel Devotion)/Psychic Warrior2/Crusader1.  (Going for Ruby Knight Vindicator10.)

Traits: Aggressive, Quick
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, Shaky

Feats: Battle Jump, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Power Attack, Practiced Manifster, Practiced Spellcaster, Up the Walls
Later Feats: Whatever you want.

ACFs: Trade Ride as a class skill for Tumble, Whirling Frenzy, Fast Movement >> Pounce.

Gear: +1 Valorous Lance, MW Jump tool, MW Tumble tool

"SKILLSMAN"
Jungle Kobold

Cloistered Cleric5 (Kobold and Time Domains) (Going for more Cloistered Cleric, perhaps with a Contemplative dip.)

Traits: Aggressive
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, -=FLAW=-

Feats: Divine Metamagic: Persist, Dragonwrought, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell

Gear: Masterwork Holy Symbol for Transmutation

"ARCANIST"
Female Human from Rashemen

Conjurer5 (Going for Incantatrix3 and Hathran1.  Needs an acorn of far travel and perhaps quintessence to preserve said acorn to justify the Hathran dip.  Otherwise, scrap Hathran and perhaps go Red Wizard instead.)

Traits: Aggressive
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, Noncombatant

Feats: Collegiate Wizard, Ethran, Extend Spell, [Fiery Burst @5], [Improved Initiative], [Iron Will from O Hole], Persistent Spell, -=FEAT=-
Later Feats: Leadership

ACFs: Abrupt Jaunt!, Fighter Bonus Feats as Wizard

Gear: Masterwork Holy Symbol for Transmutation

"THE DRUID"
Strongheart Halfling

Druid5 (Stay Druid, except perhaps to dip Contemplative1 for the Balance Domain and Sacred Exorcist1 for Turn Undead.)

Traits: Aggressive
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, Shaky

Feats: Ashbound, Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Natural Bond, Spell Focus: Conjuration
Later Feats: Frozen Wild Shape, Natural Spell

Gear: Masterwork Holy Symbol for Transmutation

"THE ODESINGER" - For when someone takes Leadership
Silverbrow Human

Swordsage1/Savage Bard3 (Going for Jade Phoenix Mage and Sublime Chord.)

Traits: Aggressive, Spellgifted: Illusion/Transmutation
Flaws: Murky-Eyed, -=FLAW=-

Feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Practiced Spellcaster: Bard, [Song of the Heart], Words of Creation
Later Feats: Song of the Heart

ACFs: Trade Countersong for Healing Hymn

Gear: Masterwork Holy Symbol for Illusion or Transmutation

[Gavinfoxx]

What's the source of masterwork holy symbols?

[Bozwevial]

What's the source of masterwork holy symbols?

Complete Champion.

[Endarire]

Masterwork Holy Symbols: Complete Champion 133.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't see how Druids could use any of those... you are talking about a Vanguard of Kord reflavored to lose the default flavor??

[Bozwevial]

Alignment:Worship: Although nondivine characters might not
pay as much homage to deities as divine casters do, anyone
wishing to gain the benefits of using a special holy symbol
as a focus must offer up at least a little religious respect.
Work with your DM to decide what sort of roleplaying is
required for your character to be considered a worshiper
of a particular deity.

[Littha]

So Mountain Hammer Shock Trooper charge build, check.  I suppose he can do the full plate... ack, Warblade and barbarian doesn't get heavy armor proficiency, apparently I need at least 5 armor check penalty, until he changes those requirements...

Crusader?

[Saxony]

If at all possible, no.

For the heavy dude... get a mithril full plate to pretend?

Or just dip Fighter for the proficiency?

[Littha]

If at all possible, no.

What's wrong with crusader?

In any case you could always spend a feat on it if you dont want to drop the level... not a great idea but it is always an option

[LargePrime]

Artificer, artificer, arTificer, artifIcer

[Kajhera]

So Mountain Hammer Shock Trooper charge build, check.  I suppose he can do the full plate... ack, Warblade and barbarian doesn't get heavy armor proficiency, apparently I need at least 5 armor check penalty, until he changes those requirements...

So what's wrong with chainmail?

[Gavinfoxx]

Cause... chainmail sucks?  I want him to have good armor, not crappy armor?

[Endarire]

Heavy armor is overrated.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Does it have to be a Rogue? Could it be a Beguiler instead? They still get trapfinding, so I guess the question is whether your DM wants someone to test out sneak attack too?

[Saxony]

If at all possible, no.

What's wrong with crusader?

In any case you could always spend a feat on it if you dont want to drop the level... not a great idea but it is always an option

Poor maneuvers, and if you did want some of them, you wouldn't be guaranteed to have them at a convenient time.

In terms of maneuvers, Warblade gets better offense (tiger claw, iron heart), better mobility (sudden leap), better defenses (diamond mind school, iron heart surge), better senses (Hunter's Sense, Hearing the Air). Let me rephrase that, Warblades have every school Crusaders have, and a better maneuver using system/recovery system. In return, Crusaders get Devoted Spirit. Which is crap except at healing. At level 1-3. When you're cheesing TWF to get a godly +4 hp per round and forgetting about maneuvers until Crusader's Strike (which comes up 60% of the time by round #2, unless you burned a feat to not suck as hard by a little bit).

Warblades have better schools than Crusaders, full stop. Except if you think Devoted Spirit is better than Tiger claw, Iron Heart, and Diamond Mind put together. It's not, though it does have a place in level 1 cutesie heal bot builds.

As for class abilities, Crusaders get a funky not DR mechanic, two saving throw abilities less useful than Diamond Mind, Smite 1/day, and heavy armor (blegh). Warblades get Improved Initiative or Combat Reflexes, flexibility with weapon feats, and 1 more hitpoint per level (d12 versus d10).

They also get Iron Heart Surge. This is the second time I mentioned it, because is the most powerful maneuver in the whole book, tied with White Raven Tactics. Crusaders don't get it. Warblades beat Crusaders at sheer endurance aside from taking swords to the gut. In fact, they beat nearly any one, many god classes, especially at level 5. Just because of Iron Heart Surge.

Crusaders < Warblades. Crusaders aren't terrible, like monks. But they're half of Warblades, with a little bit of fast healing thrown in.

Heavy armor is overrated.

This. AC doesn't kill monsters. In fact, some stuff is way better at achieving victory. Like Color Spray. Or Entangle. These things also take away monsters' actions, but the users don't need to be attacked to waste Team Monster's time.

Plus, heavy armor comes with weird penalties for stuff you care about. You can't sleep in it without getting debuffed, it takes two minutes to put on (surprise attacks ruin you), it slows your speed, and reduces your skills (especially making you loud), and it fucks up the good kind of spellcasting (arcane).

And there are 15+ different magical +1 or better AC boosts at level 5, so the +3 from Heavy Armor really isn't significant. Plus, Warblades can use heavy armor if they want... it's just going to be mithral and cost +9000 gold.

[Littha]

Several very valid points there but I actually prefer the crusaders recovery mechanism, having played several I know that you can pretty easily fill their readied manuver slots with only the better manuvers and unlike the warblade you can use one every turn no matter how long the fight goes on.

As far as Devoted Spirit goes sure, It isnt the best of the diciplines but it has its gems, Thicket of Blades is pretty awesome and Castigating Strike/Divine Surge are good fun for some damage. Greater Divine Surge followed up with Strike of righteous vitality is pretty awesome for damage at higher levels too. Pretty  much every crusader ever takes Extra Granted Manuver and they are nowhere near as random as people like to point out.

Thicket of blades is so good in fact that I quite often see people recommending dropping 2 feats just to get it (In a lockdown build at least). A Crusader could do similar if they felt the pressing need for Iron Heart Surge.

I am not arguing that its better than a Warblade, I just don't think that it justifies that reaction.