Author Topic: Tome Game  (Read 14888 times)

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2011, 03:44:58 AM »
@bkdubs, then don't post.

I'm throwing my hat in the ring. Took a 6 months hiatus from all things table top and this seems like a good place to start again. And I like Kaelik.

My first thought is an Aang flavored Elemental Siphon, but i've played that before and it seems others want to try the class. I'm considering one of the sphere heavy classes, which I think became stronger with your metamagic errata. But to be honest I have zero roleplay ideas on that front.

Could you tell us anything about the campaign?

Kaelik

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2011, 04:05:15 AM »
@bkdubs, then don't post.

I specifically asked him to come over sense in part I started the game because he was talking about wanting to get in on one. Now, I think he's kinda stupid for his criticism based on my rejection of a homebrew non Tome race that gives more immunities than any other LA 0 race ever, and that when people ask me questions about things that are made at different times by different people with no accounting for each other, I have to actually look at the rules to determine how they interact, but whatever.

Well, the campaign idea is probably going to be:

Adventuring in Pandemonium. Unless everyone takes objection to that.

EDIT: If you are going to add a bunch of extra attacks, I'm not sure how many you can get, so I probably prefer Elemental Siphon, but if you really prefer Shadow Warrior just tell me how many Natural Attacks you are going to have at level 6, and if you have any ways of getting more beyond that level, aside from natural progression of the class.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 04:09:47 AM by Kaelik »

VennDygrem

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2011, 07:54:31 AM »
Hmm, I was thinking of Pandemonium as the petitioner source for Conduit, so that would be pretty appropriate. Of course, none of it would matter if I can't get a character put together at all. >_>

Nanshork

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2011, 08:03:39 AM »
I'll just play an Elemental Siphon then.   :)

Not sure what race/feats will be good but I'll get something sorted out.
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Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2011, 09:03:40 AM »
As this'll be my first time playing tome, I'm gonna have some fun! Hopefully....

Been looking at a combination Fighter or Ranger 4 / Progenitor of the Gith 2. I'm thinking PotG with more of the base class, the elegance through simplicity.

Basic premise is he spent a long time as a combat-slave for the Illithid, until he happened upon an escape plan that was supposed to get him back to the material plane. It dropped him in Pandemonium, and life since then hasn't been a great deal better to him. As a result of where he's spent most of his life, he's gone somewhat crazy, though is frankly quite skilled at survival. Depending on further setting info, this will change, of course.

Anywho, reading up for magic items, since I'm not 100% on the values for tome games, other than that, should be done shortly.

--EDIT-- Studying for chem stopped me from going through the economicon to figure out the value meanings, but I threw together a Fighter 4 / PotG build waiting on items and for his last feat to be decided.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 01:16:44 PM by Flay Crimsonwind »

RobbyPants

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2011, 01:33:06 PM »
Anywho, reading up for magic items, since I'm not 100% on the values for tome games, other than that, should be done shortly.
My understanding is minor items cost 4,000gp. I don't know if this includes DMG items under that price, or noyt.

Kaelik: I read the section about other items like Handysacks and Crystal Balls and how they take longer to attune. I wasn't sure if they're meant to apply the enhancement bonus like other items or not.
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Kaelik

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2011, 04:38:38 PM »
Crystal Balls probably are just staves, and so don't provide a bonus. Haversacks and Bags of Holding do not provide a bonus because they are supposed to be an out of combat thing. Is there a character build reason you need in combat access to a Haversack?

EDIT: Power Attack and Cleave are not feats. Everyone gets Power Attack for free, and Cleave is probably Hordebreaker.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 04:51:24 PM by Kaelik »

VennDygrem

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2011, 06:45:51 PM »
Kaelik, quick question about your Conduit extension, specifically regarding Magical Training: Does it continue to advance in spellcasting with Conduit levels, or do you have to simply multiclass out if you want to continue the sorcerer casting and have any reasonable use for it? If it doesn't continue, then you get to Conduit 15, you still only have a few sorcerer spells and only up to 3rd level. Assuming you PrC out to a casting class, you'll wind up at level 20 with 11th level sorcerer casting, which isn't particularly useful. If it does continue, as one might assume someone taking the original version of the class might do, they'd wind up with 16th level sorcerer casting, which is a lot better since you at least get up to 8th level spells.

I suppose it makes sense either way, but I mainly want some confirmation. I think the reason the conduit gets sorcerer casting in the first place is so they can have more than just a couple tricks up their sleeves. Getting a few spheres is nice, but you still have very limited casting options, especially if you advance spheres rather than take new ones.

Kaelik

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2011, 07:13:32 PM »
I think the original reason Conduit was given Magical Training was so that you had something to progress, without giving more spheres, since they didn't want to worry about advancing with even more spheres, and everyone looking similar.

I think Magical Training is just gone on the 15 level Conduit, though I am thinking about adding some sort of immediate action defense for each plane type somewhere.

VennDygrem

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2011, 08:37:32 PM »
OK, sounds fair. It's still listed on the 15 level progression which is why I asked. Obviously wouldn't come up for a long time, though it helps in planning. Also, since a lot of the spheres seem to have summoning or calling spells, I may want to find similarly themed spells to replace them with, but I'd cross that bridge when we come to it.

Kaelik

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2011, 08:55:06 PM »
Summoning is fine (because it's short duration), calling is not. But yes, if the sphere has calling spells, or is the bone sphere, probably pick something else, or it will need to be changed.

Nanshork

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2011, 09:16:24 PM »
Kaelik, are you still working on Prestige Classes for the Elemental Siphon?
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VennDygrem

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2011, 09:34:42 PM »
Also, I'm not certain if this was addressed elsewhere, or if it's addressed by the Tome rules themselves, but are traits/feats in? Just have to ask. :)

Kaelik

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2011, 10:19:16 PM »
1) In the general sense that it's one of my ongoing projects, but so is item crafting for the Errata, and I haven't done work on that in forever. If you are hoping to pick which feat you want based on the PrCs, you won't get that, what I'll probably do is start working on whichever one you choose the feat of at some point before we even get to 10, and then it will be finished before you need it.

2) It isn't, but no/yes, no flaws for sure, and traits really aren't a big deal either way, since the only ones anyone ever picks are the slow one, + having a fly speed, or the quick one.

Nanshork

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2011, 11:06:38 PM »
1) In the general sense that it's one of my ongoing projects, but so is item crafting for the Errata, and I haven't done work on that in forever. If you are hoping to pick which feat you want based on the PrCs, you won't get that, what I'll probably do is start working on whichever one you choose the feat of at some point before we even get to 10, and then it will be finished before you need it.

Sounds like a plan.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2011, 04:41:29 AM »
How do you feel about Nightmare Seeker? I'm fancying the idea of a fear based character. Swordsman with a big scary evil living inside of him.

My worries with the class so far:
[spoiler]Nightmare Release is dumb and I'd never use it ever because 40% chance to lose a round is fucking dumb stupid shit.
FIX replace with 5' per level Intimidating Presence, will negates Shaken and immune for 24 hours. Free action to turn on and off.

Fears of the Mindless needs to add a clause which caps the penalty at -0.
Mental Reformation aka PsyRef is full retard. Going to ignore it.
Save Negates plagues a lot of the class abilities. I'm hoping to get around this by using things like Fear which are save partial and focusing on martial abilities and intimidate.
Lack of Swift/Immediate Actions makes the action economy weak. I'm scrounging for feats to use these up. Do you have any ideas of class features that could be altered or added?[/spoiler]

My musings, questions, and proposals about Demoralize in Tome:
[spoiler]No two writers can agree on how good it is. The Terror Sphere grants it as a free action 1/round. Dreadful Demeanor makes it a Move Action, Fear Sphere makes it Swift, Jester makes it Move, Master of Terror gives it a 30' area. It's hard to judge how strong it is because of fear's scalar quantity. When you Demoralize an opponent you either give him -2, make him run away, or make him fall to the ground helpless. Shaken is weak as a Swift Action, Cowered is strong as a Standard Action.

What I'm looking for: I'd take Dreadful Demeanor and Master of Terror[Leadership]. This grants me Move Action Demoralize with a 30' area. I don't want [Leadership] and neither do you, so that is dropped from MoT. It is replaced with the option to Swift Action Demoralize, but only single target.[/spoiler]

If I'm being difficult by making character creation this involved just say so. If my ideas are totally wrong tell me I'm an idiot.

Mock up:
[spoiler]Human Nightmare Seeker 6
Fields: Advanced Killing, Basic Mentant + Terror.
[/spoiler]

Kaelik

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2011, 07:29:20 AM »
1) Yes one ability is not that good, that doesn't mean I will replace it with a kick the fuck ass ability for you to further stack fear effects.

2) Yes Fear of the Mindless needs that cap to be less stupid than it already is.

3) indeed. You can try to find something else to slot in that spot.

4) Okay...

5) As a general rule, I am pro finding swift immediate actions, but a) your fault for choosing a class I didn't have a hand in making, b) I see you've already found several uses, c) my feats, as before, will work on these abilities as well, technically, though I'm sure they will be tremendously broken when applied to them, because anything Sinister makes is already 3/4ths broken even before using my feats.

d) Mentat Sense is fucking retarded. The reason Spheres don't give buffs is because if you have at will buffs, then they are active all the time. 60ft of always on best sensory perception in the game is already way better than what anyone else gets for so little investment, so you can just hold it to 60ft, instead of getting 100-200ft.

6) How good it is depends on what you are paying to get it, and how necessary it is to your character. And you know, it's made infinity times better by the sheer fact that Sinister allows you to break all immunities for no goddam reason. See below, 8.

7) Attempting to Overton window shift me by starting with a leadership feat, and then saying "But since that's too powerful, how about a further stacking fear bullshit." is not going to work. See 8.

8) So here's an average combat according to your current character design:

a) Enemy Appears!
b) Enemy is demoralized by your aura.
c) Enemy is Demoralized by your swift action.
d) Enemy is Demoralized by your move action.
e) Enemy is Demoralized by your Standard action.
f) Some of these add more than 1 point of fear, and add 1 point even on successful save.
g) If any enemy gets 2 points of fear, they immediately lose.
h) What if there are multiple enemies? Doesn't matter, half those effects are AoEs.
i) What if they are immune to mind effecting effects? Doesn't matter, all of those are ignored. Some of them are slightly harder to resist, some are not.
j) What if they are immune to fear? Doesn't matter, half your effects are demoralize effects, which now penetrate fear immunity. Also, many things are not explicitly immune to fear, because instead they are implicitly immune to fear by virtue of Mind affecting immunity.

Bottom line, I see no way to possibly challenge your character whatsoever, aside from using creatures that eternally stay outside the range of most or all of your effects. A quick SGT against the first 4 encounters I have results in you walking harmlessly through the world with things running in fear of you forever.

So for starters: 1) Don't take Master of Terror or Dreadful Demeanor at all, because skill feats in the Tomes are incredibly stupid and overpowered.
2) Fear of the Mindless only applies to abilities granted by the Nightmare Seeker class, not Demoralize effects you already had by virtue of skill ranks, or effects you gain through other means.
3) You can never use your move action to demoralize ever, because move actions are for moving, not for attacking.
4) There is probably some way, by feats or by race, or something, that you can get a fear aura, you can still do that, and if it takes multiple feats, we can stack them into one. But just a standard fear aura, and see Fear of the Mindless change.
5) Nightmare release can be switched out for a swift action Demoralize on a single target.

So instead a typical interaction with enemies would be:
1) Fear Aura (with a save), fear immune or mind affecting immune would negate this.
2) Swift action single target demoralize, Fear immunity would negate this, but not mind affecting.
3) Standard action whatever you want, but I assume mostly something that does some fear on a successful save, and more on a failed one. Back up non-fear stuff if you already found out they are fear immune.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 07:32:34 AM by Kaelik »

VennDygrem

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2011, 07:55:21 AM »
I tried reading up on Pandemonium a bit, to see if any of my character creation ideas are going to just be completely FUBAR there. From what I can tell, it'll definitely be a challenge; just about every day there's a chance you'll simply go insane, become simply confused for some time, or merely get pelted by rocks or get swept up and battered into a wall. Sounds fun! :D

Before that, I had been thinking of taking one of the cold-based spheres, and it looks like petitioners have huge resistance to cold energy, and I'm sure some other creatures there will too, so that is starting to look like a bad idea. A lot of the other spheres have either good special abilities but some lame spells (ie: either generally not worth the action or not useful too many times per day), easily negated energy damage or effects, or have nice spells but useless Special abilities.

I think my main problem is I'm still trying to figure out just what the Conduit is meant to do; what its role in the party should be, how it makes itself useful, etc.

Does anyone here have any experience with Conduits and/or spheres? The class seems solid enough, generally-speaking, and certainly is ripe for flavor. I just can't find a whole lot of feedback/advice posted anywhere for playing one, and could sure use a little.

Kaelik

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2011, 09:34:05 AM »
You are like a Sorcerer with slightly better defenses who spent all their spells known on awesome attack spells.

Every round you throw out some variant of badass attack spell that is from a sufficiently varied list that you can do something to any enemy.

If you have suggestions for replacement spells or replacement abilities for spheres, please let me know. You can even draw up your own, but as a general rule, no/very very few buffs, or extreme utility spells.

RobbyPants

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Re: Tome Game
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2011, 02:37:14 PM »
So, here are four minor items I've created (well five, but I'm going to take one of the last two):

Aquatic Darkleaf Armor (+2 AC)

Ring of Sustenance (+2 saves)

Boots of Speed (+2 Dex)

Ammulet of Change (+2 Wis)


or

Natural Ammulet (+2 Wis)

So, two questions:

1) Do those look legal?

2) Is the Natural item going to piss you off (summon one animal CR -2 as Nature's Ally)? I'd primarily use it for scouting and what-not (I speak with animals), and probably not much in combat. If you'd rather I avoid that, I'll take the Change item instead.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]