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Kethrian

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Fighter change
« on: October 05, 2011, 12:11:40 AM »
Here is what I've come up with for fixing the fighter class, like I mentioned in my soulknife change thread...

Fighter Changes

4 skill points / level (x4 at 1st)
Added class skills: Balance, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Knowledge (History), Listen, Spot

Fighter levels count as full martial adept levels for taking manoeuvres from ToB.  Plus, for every 6 fighter levels, you may take the Martial Study feat one extra time, to a maximum of 6 times at 18th level.

All feats which require fighter class levels as a prerequisite, except Weapon Supremacy, instead only require a BAB equal to the fighter level.

Any feats taken as Fighter Bonus Feats can ignore the ability score requirements.  If taken with regular feats, they must still meet the ability requirements of the feats.

3rd lv - Weapon Aptitude: The fighter can change the weapon chosen in Weapon Focus and all feats which require it as a prerequisite to another weapon with which he has proficiency.  This takes a full-round action with the new weapon in hand.

5th lv - Weapon Specialization: Fighters gain Weapon Specialization for free for each Weapon Focus they have.

7th lv - Greater Weapon Focus: Fighters gain Greater Weapon Focus for free for each Weapon Focus feat.

9th lv - Weapon Mastery: Fighters gain Weapon Mastery for free for each Weapon Focus feat.

11th lv - Greater Weapon Specialization: Fighters gain Greater Weapon Specialization for free for each Weapon Focus feat.

13th lv - Combat Reserve: Fighters learn to be extremely versatile in battle.  At 13th level, they gain a Combat Reserve pool, with 1 point in it, and an extra point every odd level, to 19th.  These points may be assigned as an immediate action to any one of the following, and are stackable unless otherwise stated:

   - Gain a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls when using Power Attack or Combat Expertise, but no higher than the total attack penalty for using these feats.
   - Gain a +1 insight bonus to one Saving Throw (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will)
   - Gain an extra use of Cleave each round
   - For 2 points, gain the ability to take a single 5' step during a Great Cleave.  This can only be taken once
   - Gain an extra target for the Dodge feat
   - Gain an extra +1 dodge bonus from the Dodge feat
   - +1 insight bonus to opposed rolls for one of the following: trip, disarm, grapple, bull rush, overrun, sunder

These points are spent for the chosen bonus until the fighter spends a move action to reclaim any number of them back into the pool, where they can be spent once again.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 03:14:41 AM by Kethrian »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2011, 01:45:59 AM »
At a glance, I see class features that I saw almost every time I looked at a Fighter Fix over at Gleemax. For the sake of conserving time, I have created a list and posted it in another thread.

Review this list, and then ask yourself "What does my fix answer?" for each point in this list. Because I'm not seeing much just looking at this.

Quote
Why the Fighter is Tier 5
  • Lack of Unique Class Features: The main draws of the Fighter class are bonus feats, Base Attack Bonus, armor and weapon proficiencies, and a d10 HD. It's "class features" all draw upon a common pool of rules: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Every other class in the entire game is capable of utilizing those rules.

  • Item Dependency: Caused by the Fighter's lack of class features, a Fighter must use magic items to shore up it's weaknesses (Note: Every class is guilty of this to some extent). Without these items, a Fighter is at a horrible disadvantage. However, a Fighter is stuck on the Wealth By Level guideline: They have no reliable means of bypassing that reliance on the WBL (Crafting using the Craft skill is too slow, as is the Profession skill). Furthermore, the magic items a fighter needs consume a huge amount of an individual character's WBL (Magic Weapons are the only items in all DnD capable of hitting 200KGP without using the Custom Magic Item rules).

  • Multiple Atribute Dependency: Fighters need Con for HP, Str for Damage, Dex for AC, and a varying amount of Int/Wis/Cha depending on feat selection. Attempting to make a Dex-focused Fighter means you will lag behind in damage output, as you have no class features that support the option (worse: Many feats that make use of Weapon Finesse have class feature requirements).

  • Build Identity Crisis: Every Lockdown Chain Tripper has the exact same feat list. Every Charger has the exact same feat list. Every Archer has the exact same feat list. It gets repetitive very quickly. Furthermore, some builds are highly impractical. Because of these builds, attempting to deviate from the established norm will result in a large liability for your party if you ignore the basics of your style. A Charger who does not have Shock Trooper will be horribly incapable, a Lockdown Chain Tripper who doesn't have Stand Still will not be able to establish his lockdown, and so forth.

  • Stagnate Combat Options: As stated above, the only actions a Fighter can take during a combat encounter are: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Using Martial Study to gain additional actions results in you feeling inferior to the Warblade, who can do everything you can, while having a wider arsenal of combat options.

  • Lack of Out-Of-Combat Flexibility: How do Fighters check for traps? Walking into them. How do Fighters keep watch? Hoping CC ranks in Spot/Listen will actually amount to anything (which it won't, as you lack the Skill Points due to MAD). How do Fighters gather information on a crime lord? They don't without CC ranks, and even then, the rest of the party is better at it. These are but a few of the OOC issues a Fighter faces. Note: Every one of these issues can be addressed by Role Playing or via Magic Items, however doing so is not a part of the Fighter class.

  • Poor Quality Feat Choices: Take a look at the Fighter's Bonus Feat choices. How many of them are actually useful?

  • Action Economy: Because the Fighter was printed in the PHB, it was unable to utilize the Swift and Immediate actions. Feats that came post-XPH attempted to correct this issue, but it wasn't enough (very few of those feats are actually useable). In addition, Magic Items that made use of the Swift/Immediate actions were often limited in uses/day, and many of those items were poorly priced/underpowered.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 03:11:43 AM »
Ah!  Forgot the fix for a fighter's MAD!  Thanks for the reminder.

Now while this won't fix all of the fighter's problems, it at least puts them on par with a barbarian, I think.

I have considered expanding the Combat Reserve to start at 5th, and add a point to the pool every odd level thereafter.  Do you think that would make it better?  Especially if there were more options to spend the points on?

RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2011, 10:46:41 AM »
Real quick and dirty, if you give them full Initiator Level and give them one maneuver per odd level, and stances every 5, that would be a bit of a fix. It'd be up to the player to pick the right things, but it uses existing material and helps out. I'm not sure what to do about a recovery mechanic, unless every maneuver is once per encounter.

If you want to put more thought into it than that, then you need to figure out how you want to handle the class and what you want them to do. A well built fighter has the numbers to stay useful until people start getting 4th level spells or so. You can even pull your weight okay up until roughly 9th or 10th level if you try really hard. The problem is, once you get past this point, you're in a party with people who have 5th or 6th level spells. That means that other people will be doing stuff like killing people on a failed save, bringing them back from the dead, traveling to any plane, going anywhere they want on the plane they're on, and solving plots with divinations.

There are three things you can do at this point:
  • Super Powers - at this point, the class needs features to keep up with spells, or at least the ability to stop monsters and enemy casters from using theirs. You can take a look at the Tome Fighter for ideas like this (that class also functions on the assumption that feats are badass, too). The disadvantage of this approach is people will complain that fighters are too anime.
  • Magic Items - You make fighters gadgeteers and give them some sort of affinity for using/creating items. This is fairly workable, but the disadvantage is as you go up in levels, the less you care about Fighter written on your character sheet and the more you care about Sword of Kas written on your sheet.
  • Stop Being a Fighter - Fighter is simply a 6 to 10 level class that gives you a free PrC as a capstone (you don't need to meet any prereqs other than level-based ones). This is quick and dirty, but it gets the job done. You just accept that the fighter as-is is simply a low level concept, and you ditch that concept once you start plane-hopping. The disadvantage is people will throw a hissy fit that the fighter isn't 20 levels long. Frank and K did this with their Tome Knight, and they said that was the biggest complaint they got.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2011, 12:50:51 PM »
Quote
Stop Being a Fighter - Fighter is simply a 6 to 10 level class that gives you a free PrC as a capstone (you don't need to meet any prereqs other than level-based ones). This is quick and dirty, but it gets the job done. You just accept that the fighter as-is is simply a low level concept, and you ditch that concept once you start plane-hopping. The disadvantage is people will throw a hissy fit that the fighter isn't 20 levels long. Frank and K did this with their Tome Knight, and they said that was the biggest complaint they got
Wow really people complained? I missed that, but it really makes sense. At level X you are a Knight of Dimonds or a Black Spiral Dancer or whatever. I like the super power route the best but... I gotta say robby you sum up the fighter issue pretty damn well.
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oslecamo

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2011, 01:06:37 PM »
  • Super Powers - at this point, the class needs features to keep up with spells, or at least the ability to stop monsters and enemy casters from using theirs. You can take a look at the Tome Fighter for ideas like this (that class also functions on the assumption that feats are badass, too). The disadvantage of this approach is people will complain that fighters are too anime.
That last part is a big lie. The reason people complain about the tome fighter is that it effortessly locks down any oponent that doesn't get a butload of actions per round. Even most other tome classes will roll over and die when faced against him. Then there's the fact that with the stacked tome feats, it rips apart anything that isn't outright immune to damage. So it ends up killing any non-fullcaster no problem, and then still gets raped by fullcasters with hordes of minions and spell combos.

In other words, few people outside of the gaming den actualy enjoy auto rocket tag as default.
 

RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2011, 02:51:52 PM »
Wow really people complained? I missed that, but it really makes sense. At level X you are a Knight of Dimonds or a Black Spiral Dancer or whatever. I like the super power route the best but... I gotta say robby you sum up the fighter issue pretty damn well.
I wasn't around when they first proposed it. I just know that Frank said that was a big complaint they got, regardless of the content of the class.


That last part is a big lie. The reason people complain about the tome fighter is that it effortessly locks down any oponent that doesn't get a butload of actions per round. Even most other tome classes will roll over and die when faced against him. Then there's the fact that with the stacked tome feats, it rips apart anything that isn't outright immune to damage. So it ends up killing any non-fullcaster no problem, and then still gets raped by fullcasters with hordes of minions and spell combos.
Actually, it's more of a broad generalization than a lie.

I brought up the Tome Fighter as a point of comparison, not a panacea. I'm not saying he should just use that and the feats and call the game fixed. The anime comment was geared more toward the Super Power notion than to the Tome Fighter. The Tome Fighter doesn't really get super powers, but rather takes the approach of dealing lots of damage and denying your opponents their super powers.

The anime comment would be more appropriate if the Super Powered fighter got actual flight, teleportation, and Dispel Magic. Does that make more sense?


In other words, few people outside of the gaming den actualy enjoy auto rocket tag as default.
The CO boards here seem to love it. And plenty of people at the Den hate it and look for ways to fix it. It's just that Tome is more associated with the Den than here.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 02:53:50 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2011, 03:56:49 PM »
The anime comment would be more appropriate if the Super Powered fighter got actual flight, teleportation, and Dispel Magic. Does that make more sense?
Dunno about you, but flight, teleportation and dispel magic don't have any direct relation with anime, and I dare you to find a quote outside the den that supports that.

In other words, few people outside of the gaming den actualy enjoy auto rocket tag as default.
The CO boards here seem to love it. And plenty of people at the Den hate it and look for ways to fix it. It's just that Tome is more associated with the Den than here.
Nope, the CO boards love to make up combos that result in rocket tag. The tomes hand outs rocket tags like candy whitout need of any combos (here, have a number of max-level cohorts equal to your cha mod for a single feat, or would you rather have at-will time stop as basic class feature?)

What the people at the den hate is actual optimization that demands them to think, as you can see for their hate of multiclassing and several instances where they refer they'll rather homebrew a class from ground up than build from the existing material anything that isn't provided by default.

RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2011, 04:31:59 PM »
The anime comment would be more appropriate if the Super Powered fighter got actual flight, teleportation, and Dispel Magic. Does that make more sense?
Dunno about you, but flight, teleportation and dispel magic don't have any direct relation with anime, and I dare you to find a quote outside the den that supports that.
Any complaint against the Tome of Battle, which has levetation, teleportation, and Iron Heart Surge (not quite the same, but still) would count. That was common at the WotC forums from 2006 until I left two years later. It's also somewhat common to see threads here in the min/max section where someone specifically lists ToB as a banned book because they or their group thinks it's too anime.



In other words, few people outside of the gaming den actualy enjoy auto rocket tag as default.
The CO boards here seem to love it. And plenty of people at the Den hate it and look for ways to fix it. It's just that Tome is more associated with the Den than here.
Nope, the CO boards love to make up combos that result in rocket tag. The tomes hand outs rocket tags like candy whitout need of any combos (here, have a number of max-level cohorts equal to your cha mod for a single feat, or would you rather have at-will time stop as basic class feature?)

What the people at the den hate is actual optimization that demands them to think, as you can see for their hate of multiclassing and several instances where they refer they'll rather homebrew a class from ground up than build from the existing material anything that isn't provided by default.
True, there is a difference, but at the end of the day, both groups still support it one way or the other.[/broad generalization]
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2011, 10:52:14 PM »
Real quick and dirty, if you give them full Initiator Level and give them one maneuver per odd level, and stances every 5, that would be a bit of a fix. It'd be up to the player to pick the right things, but it uses existing material and helps out. I'm not sure what to do about a recovery mechanic, unless every maneuver is once per encounter.

If you add that, then the fighter should have some feats taken away.  Hence why I incorporated it in just by giving them a full initiator level and increasing how many times they can take the Martial Study feat.  Adding a recovery mechanic is a good idea, though.  How about regaining all manoeuvres as a full-round action that can be used to full attack?

Quote
If you want to put more thought into it than that, then you need to figure out how you want to handle the class and what you want them to do. A well built fighter has the numbers to stay useful until people start getting 4th level spells or so. You can even pull your weight okay up until roughly 9th or 10th level if you try really hard. The problem is, once you get past this point, you're in a party with people who have 5th or 6th level spells. That means that other people will be doing stuff like killing people on a failed save, bringing them back from the dead, traveling to any plane, going anywhere they want on the plane they're on, and solving plots with divinations.

There are three things you can do at this point:
  • Super Powers - at this point, the class needs features to keep up with spells, or at least the ability to stop monsters and enemy casters from using theirs. You can take a look at the Tome Fighter for ideas like this (that class also functions on the assumption that feats are badass, too). The disadvantage of this approach is people will complain that fighters are too anime.
  • Magic Items - You make fighters gadgeteers and give them some sort of affinity for using/creating items. This is fairly workable, but the disadvantage is as you go up in levels, the less you care about Fighter written on your character sheet and the more you care about Sword of Kas written on your sheet.
  • Stop Being a Fighter - Fighter is simply a 6 to 10 level class that gives you a free PrC as a capstone (you don't need to meet any prereqs other than level-based ones). This is quick and dirty, but it gets the job done. You just accept that the fighter as-is is simply a low level concept, and you ditch that concept once you start plane-hopping. The disadvantage is people will throw a hissy fit that the fighter isn't 20 levels long. Frank and K did this with their Tome Knight, and they said that was the biggest complaint they got.

The Mage Slayer feat is crazy good at stopping enemies from using spells and SLAs if you have reach on the fighter.  But then, not every fighter should be shoehorned into a single build like that.   What would you suggest to fix that?

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2011, 11:16:17 PM »
  • Super Powers - at this point, the class needs features to keep up with spells, or at least the ability to stop monsters and enemy casters from using theirs. You can take a look at the Tome Fighter for ideas like this (that class also functions on the assumption that feats are badass, too). The disadvantage of this approach is people will complain that fighters are too anime.
I'll take this fight somewhere else. Sorry to the op.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 10:35:15 AM by Midnight_v »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2011, 10:16:35 AM »
If you add that, then the fighter should have some feats taken away.  Hence why I incorporated it in just by giving them a full initiator level and increasing how many times they can take the Martial Study feat.  Adding a recovery mechanic is a good idea, though.  How about regaining all manoeuvres as a full-round action that can be used to full attack?
So, you trade out six of your eleven feats for six maneuvers (or at least up to that), you get the Weapon Focus line of feats for free, and you can recharge on a full attack? It's certainly far better than the current fighter, but it may come off a bit feat starved. The best build I can think of this would be a level of barbarian for Pounce and Frenzy, take Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, and use Martial Study mostly for boosts and counters. Maybe I'd take a strike or two in case I get pinned in place and can't charge.

I guess either way (your suggestion or mine), this ends up playing a lot like a fighter with some warblade levels and several of your feats pre-chosen.


The Mage Slayer feat is crazy good at stopping enemies from using spells and SLAs if you have reach on the fighter.  But then, not every fighter should be shoehorned into a single build like that.   What would you suggest to fix that?
The reason I pointed to the Tome Fighter in that section was primarily the Foil ability, which is used to deny other people actions. Foil as written is kind of weird and it's one of the most often complained about features. Basically, that Super Powers bullet point can be handled in several ways:

1) Give actual super powers - The fighter would need abilities that keep up with casters. Now, casters are already pretty crazy in what they can do. This is hard to do in a way that ends up resembling a fighter when you're done. Tome of Battle attempted this, but they didn't really go far enough at high levels.

2) Deny others their powers - This is most of what the Tome Fighter does*. If you find it unpalatable to make the fighter super powered, then he needs the ability to bring others down to his level. So, if he can't teleport, he might need a way to stop others from teleporting, and perhaps a way to anticipate it.

*It makes up the rest of the gap by being very flexible in picking feats, and feats are pretty strong. The general consensus I hear from the class here and at the Den, is it actually probably goes too far.


Personally, the approach I'd take would be to nix the fighter entirely, and make it a bunch of more specialized classes, each one which can believably get super powers. So you'd get stuff like:
  • Barbarian - Tough martial guy. Eventually gets super-human feats of strength (super jumping, throwing huge things, grappling opponents larger than himself). Later gets access to spirit totems which give him actual mystic powers.
  • Swashbuckler - Fast agile guy. Eventually gets super-human feats of agility (running up walls, temporary invisibility from speed). Also has powerful social manipulation. This eventually bridges the magic-mundane gap (his succubus girlfriend can teleport him around every now and then).
  • Paladin - Holy martial guy. Gets holy magic which lets him do magical stuff. Probably make an evil version, too.
  • Eldritch Knight - A gish in a can. He can fight and casts spells.
(Wow. Long post is long!)
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2011, 11:30:57 PM »
If you add that, then the fighter should have some feats taken away.  Hence why I incorporated it in just by giving them a full initiator level and increasing how many times they can take the Martial Study feat.  Adding a recovery mechanic is a good idea, though.  How about regaining all manoeuvres as a full-round action that can be used to full attack?
So, you trade out six of your eleven feats for six maneuvers (or at least up to that), you get the Weapon Focus line of feats for free, and you can recharge on a full attack? It's certainly far better than the current fighter, but it may come off a bit feat starved. The best build I can think of this would be a level of barbarian for Pounce and Frenzy, take Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, and use Martial Study mostly for boosts and counters. Maybe I'd take a strike or two in case I get pinned in place and can't charge.

I guess either way (your suggestion or mine), this ends up playing a lot like a fighter with some warblade levels and several of your feats pre-chosen.

Eleven feats?  You mean 18, right?  Or 19 if human?  And that's just the ones you pick.  You don't have to take manoeuvres, but the fact they are now a good choice helps.  Plus, you're not limited on which discipline(s) to pick from.  Spending 1/3rd of your feats on manoeuvres isn't going to cripple a build, and it will give the fighter an advantage that the other non-ToB martial classes can't replicate.  And he'll still have a dozen feats for whatever other tactical builds you could think up.

Quote
The Mage Slayer feat is crazy good at stopping enemies from using spells and SLAs if you have reach on the fighter.  But then, not every fighter should be shoehorned into a single build like that.   What would you suggest to fix that?
The reason I pointed to the Tome Fighter in that section was primarily the Foil ability, which is used to deny other people actions. Foil as written is kind of weird and it's one of the most often complained about features. Basically, that Super Powers bullet point can be handled in several ways:

1) Give actual super powers - The fighter would need abilities that keep up with casters. Now, casters are already pretty crazy in what they can do. This is hard to do in a way that ends up resembling a fighter when you're done. Tome of Battle attempted this, but they didn't really go far enough at high levels.

2) Deny others their powers - This is most of what the Tome Fighter does*. If you find it unpalatable to make the fighter super powered, then he needs the ability to bring others down to his level. So, if he can't teleport, he might need a way to stop others from teleporting, and perhaps a way to anticipate it.

*It makes up the rest of the gap by being very flexible in picking feats, and feats are pretty strong. The general consensus I hear from the class here and at the Den, is it actually probably goes too far.


Personally, the approach I'd take would be to nix the fighter entirely, and make it a bunch of more specialized classes, each one which can believably get super powers. So you'd get stuff like:
  • Barbarian - Tough martial guy. Eventually gets super-human feats of strength (super jumping, throwing huge things, grappling opponents larger than himself). Later gets access to spirit totems which give him actual mystic powers.
  • Swashbuckler - Fast agile guy. Eventually gets super-human feats of agility (running up walls, temporary invisibility from speed). Also has powerful social manipulation. This eventually bridges the magic-mundane gap (his succubus girlfriend can teleport him around every now and then).
  • Paladin - Holy martial guy. Gets holy magic which lets him do magical stuff. Probably make an evil version, too.
  • Eldritch Knight - A gish in a can. He can fight and casts spells.
(Wow. Long post is long!)

I don't mind long posts that are thoughtful.  I'm sure I could drop the Combat Reserve stuff and instead make a list of "super powers" for the fighter to pick from on odd levels from 13+.  The hard part will be to come up with a good variety to cover multiple build styles, while keeping them balanced.  And none should push the fighter above tier 3 in terms of power level.

cfjeldstrom

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2011, 11:39:50 PM »
I am currently trying out this fighter model, in combination with the ToB Crusader. It offers the ability to re-choose some of the feats that one would have to take as base feats, weapon specialization for example. Being able to take those levels without losing BAB, AND getting to have those levels stack for initiator level is AWESOME.

SneeR

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2011, 05:07:17 AM »
@cfjeldstrom:
You only have 2 posts, and that is one of them... Have you gone to the introductions threads?
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
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[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2011, 10:02:02 AM »
Eleven feats?  You mean 18, right?  Or 19 if human?  And that's just the ones you pick.  You don't have to take manoeuvres, but the fact they are now a good choice helps.  Plus, you're not limited on which discipline(s) to pick from.  Spending 1/3rd of your feats on manoeuvres isn't going to cripple a build, and it will give the fighter an advantage that the other non-ToB martial classes can't replicate.  And he'll still have a dozen feats for whatever other tactical builds you could think up.
I meant 11 from class features. I was just comparing class features to class features. But yeah, with the other 7 - 8 feats, it probably won't be starved for feats. That was an exaggeration on my part. I think you could pull off some interesting stuff, especially with the discipline flexibility, but I'm not sure if you could pull it off without taking a bunch of maneuvers.


I don't mind long posts that are thoughtful.  I'm sure I could drop the Combat Reserve stuff and instead make a list of "super powers" for the fighter to pick from on odd levels from 13+.  The hard part will be to come up with a good variety to cover multiple build styles, while keeping them balanced.  And none should push the fighter above tier 3 in terms of power level.
Tier 3 is a good place to aim. At levels 13+, "super powers" won't necessarily push you above this point; they'll just push you out of the realm of mundane fighter guy.

Looking for a variety of abilities to cover different archetypes is good. That's the problem with the fighter in the first place is that his only real flavor is "mundane fighter guy", which doesn't leave much room for super powers when it comes to willing suspension of disbelief.
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oslecamo

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2011, 10:27:45 AM »
Looking for a variety of abilities to cover different archetypes is good. That's the problem with the fighter in the first place is that his only real flavor is "mundane fighter guy", which doesn't leave much room for super powers when it comes to willing suspension of disbelief.
Then you're simply not reading enough fiction.

Using your previous barbarian example, you say he should suddenly become a shaman and start pulling spirits out of a hat and floating whitout strings. Except that's not what people expect of a barbarian at all. That's what people expect of a shaman.

Now take, for example, the hulk. The hulk fights gods now and then in the marvel universe, has conquered whole planets when on vacation, and beated the crap out of the supreme sorcerer on his personal realm. And he can't fly or pull spirits out thin air or has a totem of some fuzzy animal. What he can do is:
-Jump extremely high (he once reached the moon that way) or throw giant boulders that knock his oponents out of the skies.
-Break pretty much anything with his bare fists,  including but not limited to magic barriers.
-Clap his hands to create waves of air.
-Shrugg off pretty much anything.
-Clap his hands to create waves of air.
-Slam the ground to provoke earthquakes.

And that applies to plenty of other comic "mundane brutes".

Then there's guys like batman and captain america that have super kung-fu that allow them to dodge/block pretty much anything. A warrior NPC can't block a fireball. Captain America can block freaking super-novas (it hapened in the comics) with his shield! He can then throw his shield to ricochet at impossible angles to knock out an enemy spellcaster for long enough to close in, and then grapples them regardless of they having freedom of movement or not. Then makes a super-patriotic speech that allows his allies to break out from that fear effect that was locking them down. While batman can probably make fear effects of his own.

Really, some people say that batman and superman don't adventure togheter, but if you look at the comics, you can see stuff like:
-Need to go to Apocolopsys that's in another planet. Batman tracks down a teleporter machine and the coordinates with his detective-fu.
-Arrive to Apocolopsys. Superman uses his invulnerability and super-strenght. Batman uses his super kung-fu and super-yoga to slip unnoticed trough darkseeid's magitech sensors, knocking out darkseid's minions from the shadows. And then when superman gets knocked down by darkseid himself, Batman jumps out from the shadows and manages to hurt Darkseid with super kung-fu, and then revitalizes superman with cynical speech!

Simply put, the mundane warrior still fights in a mundane way, it's just that he can go over mortal limits. He hits hard enough to break walls of force. He blocks well enough to stop area effects. He jumps good enough to reach oponents in the air (or throws something to force them into the ground, even if there's raging winds between them). He maybe can literally kick people into next week!

Kethrian

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 10:50:41 AM »
Looking for a variety of abilities to cover different archetypes is good. That's the problem with the fighter in the first place is that his only real flavor is "mundane fighter guy", which doesn't leave much room for super powers when it comes to willing suspension of disbelief.
Then you're simply not reading enough fiction.

Using your previous barbarian example, you say he should suddenly become a shaman and start pulling spirits out of a hat and floating whitout strings. Except that's not what people expect of a barbarian at all. That's what people expect of a shaman.

Now take, for example, the hulk. The hulk fights gods now and then in the marvel universe, has conquered whole planets when on vacation, and beated the crap out of the supreme sorcerer on his personal realm. And he can't fly or pull spirits out thin air or has a totem of some fuzzy animal. What he can do is:
-Jump extremely high (he once reached the moon that way) or throw giant boulders that knock his oponents out of the skies.
-Break pretty much anything with his bare fists,  including but not limited to magic barriers.
-Clap his hands to create waves of air.
-Shrugg off pretty much anything.
-Clap his hands to create waves of air.
-Slam the ground to provoke earthquakes.

And that applies to plenty of other comic "mundane brutes".

Then there's guys like batman and captain america that have super kung-fu that allow them to dodge/block pretty much anything. A warrior NPC can't block a fireball. Captain America can block freaking super-novas (it hapened in the comics) with his shield! He can then throw his shield to ricochet at impossible angles to knock out an enemy spellcaster for long enough to close in, and then grapples them regardless of they having freedom of movement or not. Then makes a super-patriotic speech that allows his allies to break out from that fear effect that was locking them down. While batman can probably make fear effects of his own.

Really, some people say that batman and superman don't adventure togheter, but if you look at the comics, you can see stuff like:
-Need to go to Apocolopsys that's in another planet. Batman tracks down a teleporter machine and the coordinates with his detective-fu.
-Arrive to Apocolopsys. Superman uses his invulnerability and super-strenght. Batman uses his super kung-fu and super-yoga to slip unnoticed trough darkseeid's magitech sensors, knocking out darkseid's minions from the shadows. And then when superman gets knocked down by darkseid himself, Batman jumps out from the shadows and manages to hurt Darkseid with super kung-fu, and then revitalizes superman with cynical speech!

Simply put, the mundane warrior still fights in a mundane way, it's just that he can go over mortal limits. He hits hard enough to break walls of force. He blocks well enough to stop area effects. He jumps good enough to reach oponents in the air (or throws something to force them into the ground, even if there's raging winds between them). He maybe can literally kick people into next week!

Sounds like I should be browsing the powers in City of Heroes!  There's plenty in there that fit these ideas rather well.  I guess I've got something to work on over the next week...

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 01:02:30 PM »
That long analysis of Oslecomo's is pretty incorrect.
I don't talk to him really because I find him unreasonably unpleasant, but some of his points like about the hulk...
Quote

Now take, for example, the hulk. The hulk fights gods now and then in the marvel universe, has conquered whole planets when on vacation, and beated the crap out of the supreme sorcerer on his personal realm. And he can't fly or pull spirits out thin air or has a totem of some fuzzy animal. What he can do is:
-Jump extremely high (he once reached the moon that way) or throw giant boulders that knock his oponents out of the skies.
-Break pretty much anything with his bare fists,  including but not limited to magic barriers.
-Clap his hands to create waves of air.
-Clap his hands to create waves of "water"?
-Shrugg off pretty much anything.
-Slam the ground to provoke earthquakes
In all honestly, the hulk is acting full as a shaman in these examples. His whole transformation into "The Great Beast" is actually explored by certain authors in his comics, it happens from time to time when hulk tries to get help from medicine men etc. . . So no the totem isn't furry, but there are many examples of the hulk pulling multiple spirits out of his mind and becoming DIFFERENT HULKS, aka different totems. That is purely a fluff change from the traditional veiw of what possession is.
If you look at pathfinders Eidolon summoner, and the Ultimate Vessel class from szatany you'll find that the hulk actually something of shaman who gets taken over by the rage god.

Clapping his hands to create waves of air/water:
 Is actually what a shaman would do. He's just described an instance of casting a spell with a somantic component.
 As is
Slamming the ground to "provoke an earthquake".
 Sadly this example is in D&D and really he's used the hulk which is in many ways a full caster in this medium sadly.
 
Captain America, and the BatGod, have plot armor. . . that is all.

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SneeR

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Re: Fighter change
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2011, 02:58:59 PM »
So you think that mundanes should be flailing, worthless idiots at high levels, Midnight? How can the fighter possibly keep up with the wizard Tier 3 at high levels? What oslecamo described is the justification for mundanes doing things that are worth casters' time.

You're falling into the trap of Fighters Can't Have Nice Things (TM), which dictates that anything normal human can't do is immediately encompassed by magic.

You know how they say sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic? Well, in this case, sufficiently advanced awesomeness martial arts is indistinguishable from magic.

How do you think high-level mundanes should perform?
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]