Author Topic: Soulknife Change  (Read 2237 times)

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Kethrian

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Soulknife Change
« on: October 04, 2011, 11:37:31 PM »
Before I had stumbled across these forums, I and my friends had agreed that the soulknife and fighter were severely underpowered classes.  There are, of course, other classes, but these two were the ones that we wanted to play the most, and so I took it upon myself to modify them, while keeping the flavour of the classes intact.  And so, the soulknife isn't getting ToB manoeuvres or manifester levels.  And because the changes will make the 2 PrCs for soulknives underpowered, I incorporated them right into the class options, rendering both the soulbow and illumine soul obsolete.

Soulknife Changes

Full Base Attack Bonus progression, as Fighter

Get a +1 bonus to saves vs mind-affecting effects at 1st level, and increases by 1 at 6, 11, and 16.  At 20th, gain immunity to mind-affecting.

Gain specific bonus feats pertaining to the Mind Blade
Level 4: Weapon Specialization
Level 8: Weapon Mastery (specific to mind blades, whether melee or thrown)
Level 12: Greater Weapon Focus (instead of level 9)
Level 16: Greater Weapon Specialization
Level 20: Weapon Supremacy

Change the special ability enhancements list to anything allowed to a melee weapon, except Sizing, Morphing, Throwing or Changeling properties.  If the enhancement has its cost listed in GP instead of a + bonus, then 6,000gp or less is a +1, 6,001 to 16,000 is +2, 16,001 to 30,000 is +3, 30,001 to 50,000 is +4, and 50,001 to 75,000 is +5.  Anything over 75,000gp would be equivalent to a +6 or greater, and is relegated solely to epic levels.  (calculated using values listed in the Magic Item Compendium).

Remove Multiple Throw, Bladewind, and Knife to the Soul from the standard progression.  Instead, starting at level 7, the Soulknife gains an ability option at every odd level, until 19th level.  Ability options are:
   - Multiple Throw
   - Bladewind
   - Knife to the Soul
   - Extended Throw Range, can be taken multiple times
   - Penetrating Throw
   - Positive Energy Conduit
   - Positive Energy Ray, prerequisite: Positive Energy Conduit
   - Positive Energy Healing, prerequisite: Positive Energy Conduit
   - Positive Energy Burst, prerequisite: Positive Energy Conduit, Positive Energy Ray
   - Camouflage (as Ranger ability)
   - Hide in Plain Sight (as Ranger ability), prerequisite: Camouflage
   - Evasion (as Monk ability)
   - Improved Evasion (as Monk ability), prerequisite: Evasion
   - Expanded Shape Mind Blade, can be taken multiple times
   - any Psionic Feat, 2-Weapon Fighting, or any feat with 2-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite, so long as all prerequisites of the feat are met.

Extended Throw Range: Each time this ability is taken, the range the mind blade can be thrown increases by +50'.  Once this ability has been taken once, ranged weapon enhancements can be taken for the mind blade, except for the Quick Loading, Returning, or Morphing properties.  Any property that is melee only does not apply to thrown attacks, while ranged only will not apply to melee attacks.

Penetrating Throw: Make a single attack that affects all targets in a line, out to 30' plus 50' for each Extended Throw Range.  All bonus damage, such as Psychic Strike or a critical hit, only affect the first target in the line.

Positive Energy Conduit: Psychic Strike deals damage to undead, regardless of its intelligence score.

Positive Energy Ray: Standard action, ranged touch attack 60', deals 1d6 damage per class level to undead.  Usable once per day per 3 class levels.

Positive Energy Healing: Once per day per 5 class levels, as an immediate action, the soulknife heals 3d8+class level HP.  This ability automatically activates if the soulknife is reduced to 0 or less HP, and can prevent death if it heals a sufficient amount of damage to keep the soulknife at -9 HP or higher.

Positive Energy Burst: As a standard action, the soulknife can expend his psionic focus to unleash a burst of positive energy, dealing 1d6 damage per class level to all undead within 60', will save DC 10 + 1/2 class level + con mod for half damage.  This uses one of his Positive Energy Rays for the day.

Expanded Shape Mind Blade: The soulknife can choose 3 simple or martial melee weapons to add to his list of shapes available to change his mind blade into, and is proficient with these shapes.  If he has 2 mind blades, each may be shaped separately.

At epic levels, a soulknife can choose to take another ability option instead of an epic feat.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2011, 02:47:51 AM by Kethrian »

RobbyPants

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2011, 10:21:00 AM »
What power level are you aiming for with this? A few notes:

Full BAB is good.

The bonus feats aren't a big deal, but they're a nice help.

Did you switch the weapon enhancement from a flat plus to gp values so that you can get some of the MIC properties that cost a flat gold amount instead of a plus amount? That's the only reason I can see for this change.

I like a lot of the other abilities, except that they don't really scale to higher level. The only thing that really scales is your weapon (which is nice), but you only gain more options with the abilities, not more powerful options. The quick and dirty way to do this is either to add some more options and put in level prereqs for the abilities, or to have the abilities scale with level. Some examples:
  • Positive Energy Healing would be nice at low level, but scales too slowly to be a real benefit. If it's once per day, you might want to have it heal an amount equal to half your max HP.
  • Positive Energy Ray should probably deal at least 1d6 per class level. It's not that much damage and you have a capped use per day. Even then, it's still pretty weak. If it also dazes them on a failed Will save, it would be worth the standard action.
  • Positive Energy Burst should also deal at least 1d6 per class level.

As for higher level abilities, you'll want some nice options for mobility and defense, and possibly utility. Some options could include:
  • Fly for a number of rounds equal to your class level X/day.
  • Dimension door X/day.
  • Dimension door as a move action X/day.
  • Target hit with a Mind Blade is affected by Dimensional Anchor (although you might just be able to pull this off with the Binding property when adding magical abilities).
  • Bonus on saves against [Mind Affecting] abilities.
  • Affected by Mind Blank X/day (or at will at high enough levels).
  • Spell Resistance = 10 + class level (raise or drop as a swift action)

That's just a few things off the top of my head. But the class already has a pseudo magical flavor to it, so you might as well add some of these things straight into the class as opposed to making them get them from magical items.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 10:26:47 AM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2011, 10:30:25 PM »
What power level are you aiming for with this? A few notes:

Full BAB is good.

The bonus feats aren't a big deal, but they're a nice help.

Well, I was shooting for high tier 4/low tier 3.

Quote
Did you switch the weapon enhancement from a flat plus to gp values so that you can get some of the MIC properties that cost a flat gold amount instead of a plus amount? That's the only reason I can see for this change.

Actually, that's backwards.  Any enhancements that have a flat gp value have been translated to a plus to make them easy to assign to the weapon.

Quote
I like a lot of the other abilities, except that they don't really scale to higher level. The only thing that really scales is your weapon (which is nice), but you only gain more options with the abilities, not more powerful options. The quick and dirty way to do this is either to add some more options and put in level prereqs for the abilities, or to have the abilities scale with level. Some examples:
  • Positive Energy Healing would be nice at low level, but scales too slowly to be a real benefit. If it's once per day, you might want to have it heal an amount equal to half your max HP.
  • Positive Energy Ray should probably deal at least 1d6 per class level. It's not that much damage and you have a capped use per day. Even then, it's still pretty weak. If it also dazes them on a failed Will save, it would be worth the standard action.
  • Positive Energy Burst should also deal at least 1d6 per class level.

Yeah, I was thinking about increasing those, but I didn't want to go overboard.  It's easier to start testing with them underpowered, and increase it if it's too weak, rather than nerf it later and have people complain.  Positive energy healing could easily be set to once per day per 4 or 5 levels to keep it useful without overpowering it, and just remove the option to take it multiple times.  As for the ray and burst, there's no save for half, hence why they are at d6/2 levels.  But changing it to d8s instead, does that seem reasonable?

Quote
As for higher level abilities, you'll want some nice options for mobility and defense, and possibly utility. Some options could include:
  • Fly for a number of rounds equal to your class level X/day.
  • Dimension door X/day.
  • Dimension door as a move action X/day.
  • Target hit with a Mind Blade is affected by Dimensional Anchor (although you might just be able to pull this off with the Binding property when adding magical abilities).
  • Bonus on saves against [Mind Affecting] abilities.
  • Affected by Mind Blank X/day (or at will at high enough levels).
  • Spell Resistance = 10 + class level (raise or drop as a swift action)

That's just a few things off the top of my head. But the class already has a pseudo magical flavor to it, so you might as well add some of these things straight into the class as opposed to making them get them from magical items.

Many of those can easily be gained through magic items, which the soulknife should have the funds to get, considering they don't have to spend anything on their weapon.  I do like the idea of bonus to saves against mind-affecting, perhaps +1 per 5 levels, and maybe change to immunity at 20th for a nice extra capstone to the class.

RobbyPants

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2011, 10:30:10 AM »
Yeah, I was thinking about increasing those, but I didn't want to go overboard.  It's easier to start testing with them underpowered, and increase it if it's too weak, rather than nerf it later and have people complain.  Positive energy healing could easily be set to once per day per 4 or 5 levels to keep it useful without overpowering it, and just remove the option to take it multiple times.  As for the ray and burst, there's no save for half, hence why they are at d6/2 levels.  But changing it to d8s instead, does that seem reasonable?
Well, the difference between d8 and d6 is a point per die, on average. Is there a reason there's no save for half? Basically, "d6/2 levels, no save" is the same as saying "d6/level, save for half, and they always make their save". d6/level isn't really overpowered for two reasons:

1) Undead have d12 hit dice. So, if they have the same HD as your level, you'd have to blast them twice to kill them (and they'd have to fail their save twice).

2) Any non-caster type undead (skeletons and zombies, particularly) have really inflated HD for their CR. This is a combination of them not getting a Con mod to their HP and because they have poor BAB progression. So you end up with stuff like a CR 6 zombie with 20 HD. You'd be dealing 6d6 damage (average of 21 on a failed save) against a guy with 20d12+3 HP (average of 133). You'd have to blast him seven times, assuming he failed his save each time (and he wouldn't because Will is a good save, and with 20 HD, he'd have a Will save of +12).


Many of those can easily be gained through magic items, which the soulknife should have the funds to get, considering they don't have to spend anything on their weapon.  I do like the idea of bonus to saves against mind-affecting, perhaps +1 per 5 levels, and maybe change to immunity at 20th for a nice extra capstone to the class.
Well, if you make magic item acquisition fairly easy, and make it easy enough to trade, then it might work out fairly well.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2011, 11:41:43 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking about increasing those, but I didn't want to go overboard.  It's easier to start testing with them underpowered, and increase it if it's too weak, rather than nerf it later and have people complain.  Positive energy healing could easily be set to once per day per 4 or 5 levels to keep it useful without overpowering it, and just remove the option to take it multiple times.  As for the ray and burst, there's no save for half, hence why they are at d6/2 levels.  But changing it to d8s instead, does that seem reasonable?
Well, the difference between d8 and d6 is a point per die, on average. Is there a reason there's no save for half? Basically, "d6/2 levels, no save" is the same as saying "d6/level, save for half, and they always make their save". d6/level isn't really overpowered for two reasons:

1) Undead have d12 hit dice. So, if they have the same HD as your level, you'd have to blast them twice to kill them (and they'd have to fail their save twice).

2) Any non-caster type undead (skeletons and zombies, particularly) have really inflated HD for their CR. This is a combination of them not getting a Con mod to their HP and because they have poor BAB progression. So you end up with stuff like a CR 6 zombie with 20 HD. You'd be dealing 6d6 damage (average of 21 on a failed save) against a guy with 20d12+3 HP (average of 133). You'd have to blast him seven times, assuming he failed his save each time (and he wouldn't because Will is a good save, and with 20 HD, he'd have a Will save of +12).

Okay, that makes sense.  Plus, with the ray and burst only functional against one creature type, it would be hard to abuse.  The burst should get a save for half, since there's no attack rolls, and it's an AoE.  Probably Will DC 10+1/2 level+con mod, to keep the class from getting too MAD.

Quote
Many of those can easily be gained through magic items, which the soulknife should have the funds to get, considering they don't have to spend anything on their weapon.  I do like the idea of bonus to saves against mind-affecting, perhaps +1 per 5 levels, and maybe change to immunity at 20th for a nice extra capstone to the class.
Well, if you make magic item acquisition fairly easy, and make it easy enough to trade, then it might work out fairly well.

Oh, I never run games where magic items are hard to get, because that unfairly punishes the non-spellcasting classes.  Generally, I have some kind of enchanter (pronounced Artificer) in any urban area with a population over 500.  That way, the players never get too frustrated with a lack of gear available.

cfjeldstrom

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2011, 04:00:00 AM »
Quote
Oh, I never run games where magic items are hard to get, because that unfairly punishes the non-spellcasting classes.  Generally, I have some kind of enchanter (pronounced Artificer) in any urban area with a population over 500.  That way, the players never get too frustrated with a lack of gear available.
This is true, also he's not too stingy on loot.

RobbyPants

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2011, 10:06:31 AM »
Okay, that makes sense.  Plus, with the ray and burst only functional against one creature type, it would be hard to abuse.  The burst should get a save for half, since there's no attack rolls, and it's an AoE.  Probably Will DC 10+1/2 level+con mod, to keep the class from getting too MAD.
That sounds reasonable. Stuff like ghosts, shadows, vampires, and liches might go down semi easily, but the incorporeal bad guys still have a 50% chance to not be affected, and all of the templated creatures will have class levels which will likely give them added defenses.


Oh, I never run games where magic items are hard to get, because that unfairly punishes the non-spellcasting classes.  Generally, I have some kind of enchanter (pronounced Artificer) in any urban area with a population over 500.  That way, the players never get too frustrated with a lack of gear available.
That's good. It might work out fine, so long as the player picks good items to shore up any weaknesses.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kethrian

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2011, 10:44:52 AM »
And incorporeals are easy to deal with: Gauntlets of Ghost Fighting (4000gp, MIC).

Kethrian

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Re: Soulknife Change
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2011, 02:49:35 AM »
Edited the changes and fixes into the initial post.