Author Topic: epic cleric advice  (Read 3415 times)

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linklord231

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epic cleric advice
« on: October 03, 2011, 10:56:47 PM »
So I'm currently playing a dwarf cleric 20/heirophant 2/contemplative 1 in a campaign that's been going for just shy of 2 years.  Our last fight got us enough XP to go from 23 to 25 (won a fight we were supposed to run from), and now I'm having a hard time deciding what direction I want to take this character in.  Unfortunately I hadn't even heard of optimization until level 15 or so, so my first several feats were almost literally set on fire.  I mean, seriously, I thought Combat Casting, Tower Shield Proficiency, Eschew Materials, and RUN were good feat picks, and my DM is vehemently opposed to retraining  :banghead :banghead :banghead.  So my options for prestige classes are pretty slim. 

I was thinking of one of 3 main directions to go from here.  The first option was to take 1-2 levels of Barbarian, then back in to epic cleric.  This gets me Pounce and probably Improved Trip (Lion and Wolf totem variants), along with access to martial weapons (wheeee!).  Unfortunately the DM vetoed Whirling Frenzy because both of us looked at it and thought Why on earth would you pick anything else?  The downside to this is that it steps heavily on the toes of the party beatstick, a Fighter/Barb/Whirling Reaper.  It also delays getting my Epic Cleric feats by a level or two, and epic feats are niiiice. 
Second option is to just go more cleric.  The upside to this is more epic feats.  I already have Epic Spellcasting and unfortunately I don't qualify for auto-quicken or improved metamagic yet (I only have 28 ranks in spellcraft, need 30  :( ).  The downside is that until I actually GET 30 ranks in spellcraft, I don't know what feats to take. 
Final option is to go more levels in Heirophant.  I took Divine Reach (at the time, it was to compensate for my poor speed so that I could heal people before they died, but now I realize it means persisting touch spells  :D) for my first special ability and Persistent Spell as a bonus MM feat for my second, and I'm thinking Chain Spell and possibly Twin Spell would be put to good use as my special abilities from more Heirophant.  Pro is being able to persistent chain buff the party, Con is fewer epic feats and doesn't advance rebuking (not that I really care at this point, having already lost 3 levels of it). 

Something I should probably mention:  the DM gave me something akin to Divine Metamagic, in that I get 3 * my Wis Mod in free metamagic levels per day.  And being an Epic character, my wis mod is somewhere in the neighborhood of +13, so this is not insignificant. 

So, what do you guys think?  Is one of these significantly better than the others?  Or is there some other option that I'm completely missing that's better still?  Any advice is appreciated. 

Gavinfoxx

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2011, 10:58:41 PM »
You have showed him the actual sections in Player's Handbook II which talk about retraining and quests for retraining and stuff? You have sat down next to him, with the book open, and pointed at some of the options you would like to do?
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linklord231

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 11:07:23 PM »
I've talked to him about it, but he believes that the choices I made for feats are part of what makes that character who he is and shouldn't be changed.  I can't say I disagree with him too much in most respects though.  For example, my character has used a tower shield since we started playing and it would be hard to explain switching that out.  There were also a couple times when Run saved my butt escaping from things.  And a large part of it is that I ALREADY outshine the party most of the time, even with several useless feats. 

Scrollreader

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 11:09:11 PM »
You can use Miracle to duplicate psychic reformation, I believe.  Unless your DM hates psionics as well, this should both allow you to 'fix' things, and provide the fluff requirement (ie, It's a Miracle!) Some XP may be required.

linklord231

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 11:21:07 PM »
That might work, and I'll talk to him about it, but really this thread was supposed to be about what direction to go NEXT rather than what I SHOULD have done.  Sorry if that sounded rude, I'm just trying to go under the assumption that the choices I've made are locked in, and figure out where to go from there.

Scrollreader

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 11:32:56 PM »
Oh, sure.  Sorry if I threadjacked, just trying to point out an option that might satisfy both you and your DM.


  Are you in a specific campaign world?  The sovereign speaker is especially fantastic, once you hit epic.  So many delicious domains.  Otherwise, I'd continue with heirophant.  Rebuking/turning is pretty useless to advance, given the HD of some of the things you could conceivably be threatened by, and +1 level spellcasting is pretty limited.  Especially once you hit epic, IME, it is hard for the beatsticks to feel useful, so I'd shy away from the Barbarian option, and try to avoid niche overlap, as much as possible.

Gavinfoxx

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2011, 12:45:57 AM »
And if the DM won't let you Miracle something to change your character, use epic spellcasting to do so...
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linklord231

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2011, 01:36:48 AM »
Are you in a specific campaign world?  The sovereign speaker is especially fantastic, once you hit epic.  So many delicious domains. 

I looked at Sovereign Speaker and I agree with your assessment.  Unfortunately, I'm a cleric of Vecna so I don't fulfill the requirements of worshiping the Host.  Normally the DM's pretty lax about changing fluff requirements, but the whole point of the class is to serve a god I don't worship so I'm not sure if he'd be cool with that.  I know if I were DMing I probably wouldn't be.  To answer your question, we're not in a published campaign setting, just one the DM built himself.  It uses mostly the PHB pantheon, but he just recently started mixing in stuff from 2nd edition Deities and Demigods.  We do have access to a couple Faerun books which we're allowed to draw from, but nobody's ever asked about Eberron stuff before. 

Rebel7284

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2011, 04:02:35 AM »
Dipping tome of battle classes will give you some high level maneuvers which can be extremely useful (White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge are perhaps the best, but you can chose up to level 6 maneuvers.)
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jeffrie

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2011, 04:44:04 PM »
Have your character put down the tower shield for a level and then retrain the feat. Run is more difficult to see the same way. Just a thought.

Epic Dweomerkeeper is available if you get to raise two levels at a time. Use the first to get magic domain and the second to get some arcane spells? I hear Dweomerkeeper is good for epic.
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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 05:01:35 PM »
Will your DM let you acquire the Vecna-Blooded template?
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linklord231

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2011, 06:40:41 PM »
Dipping tome of battle classes will give you some high level maneuvers which can be extremely useful (White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge are perhaps the best, but you can chose up to level 6 maneuvers.)

I briefly thought about ToB but I forgot your IL is based partly on character level, not just Martial Adept level which means I can choose higher level maneuvers.  I didn't think it would be worth it at the time because none of the lower level ones seemed very appealing, but now it bears further consideration.  Thanks  :)

Epic Dweomerkeeper is available if you get to raise two levels at a time. Use the first to get magic domain and the second to get some arcane spells? I hear Dweomerkeeper is good for epic.

Wow, Dweomerkeeper is fantastic.  Cloak of Mysteries alone is the equivalent of an epic feat, and it looks like it stacks with other MM reducers (including the feat I just mentioned), and the "no components" line of Supernatural Spell looks like it applies to XP components too, which is just gravy.  So, your suggestion would be to take a level of Wiz or Sorc or something, then proceed into Dweomerkeeper?  Do you know if there are any Wisdom based arcane casters?  I had to put a 12 in Int and my Cha isn't much better. 

Will your DM let you acquire the Vecna-Blooded template?

I actually talked to him about that, but it requires the ability to cast arcane spells, which I don't currently have.  He did say that he'd be willing to reflavor it if I really want to, but the thing is I'm not sure I do.  It seems like there would be better options, you know?  Also, the thing about everyone forgetting who I was before becoming Vecna Blooded is contrary to my character's overall goal. 

Rebel7284

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2011, 06:56:38 PM »
There are several feats that give you cantrips, but as I recall, they all require you to be a level 1 character.  If you can find a psion to use psychic reformation on you (or miracle it), it would save you a level.  Dread Necromancer gives you rebuke undead in a 1 level dip if you're non-good.  Might be useful if you pick up actual DMM later.  Trapsmith has an amusing list of level 1 arcane spells.  Arcane Swordsage adaptation could work too, but most people consider it poorly thought out and very cheezy.
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CantripN

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2011, 06:58:22 PM »
Could you tell us what exact feats you have? Then, we'd be able to know what you can qualify for.

Ethran / Hathran would be nice, for utter and total spontaneity. Oh, and Circle Magic.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 07:09:43 PM by CantripN »
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linklord231

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2011, 07:50:11 PM »
I don't have access to my character sheet right now (the DM keeps everyone's so that they don't get lost/damaged/forgotten/whatever), but I'll post my current build best I can remember:

Dwarf Cleric (of Vecna) 20/Heirophant 2/Contemplative 1
Domains:  Magic and Knowledge, Contemplative bonus:  Evil
Feats:
1) Tower Shield Proficiency
3) Power Attack
6) Empower Spell
9) Run
12) Eschew Materials - houseruled to allow you to expend gold in place of actually having expensive material components
15) Maximize Spell
18) Extend Spell
21) Epic Spellcasting

I also have a "virtual" feat my DM calls Corpsecrafting - totally unrelated to the feat from Libris Mortis - that lets me graft items and parts of other creatures onto bodies I Resurrect or Animate, which counts as an [Item Creation] feat.
I don't remember exact ability scores but Wis >> Str > Con > Cha > Int > Dex.  The first 3 are all above 20, and everything else is 16 or lower unless I sink money into buying some bonuses. 

Rebel7284

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2011, 08:37:07 PM »
Another alternative is to see if your DM is ok with adapting Ruby Knight Vindicator to Vecna.  Automatic Quicken Spell + Divine Impetus(sp?) is amusing.  7-8 level commitment though.
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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2011, 08:38:45 PM »
Vecna?  Someone said Vecna?  VECNA-BLOODED!

Ok, with that out of the way...

I will start by assuming that your DM is keeping you on a tight leash with regards to Epic Spellcasting, because you really just re-write reality according to your own whims if he doesn't.

Certain feats like Permanent Emanation are useful, as is Auto-Silent since a pathetic level 2 spell effect really shouldn't shut you down the way it does.  There's also a feat somewhere that lets you Turn/Rebuke Outsiders that is undoubtedly useful, since Outsiders have lower HD and no Turn Resistance.  For creatures to do this with, Imps are always useful for their capabilities as messengers (teleport at will) and Diviners (Commune 1/week).  If you really want to be epic, Rebuke/Command a Kochrachon and use it's aid to initiate the Zombie Apocalypse.  Both Imps and Kochrachons can be killed and transformed into either Bone or Corpse creatures for easier rebuking/commanding if you don't want to spend an epic feat on commanding Outsiders.

linklord231

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Re: epic cleric advice
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2011, 08:56:24 PM »
Another alternative is to see if your DM is ok with adapting Ruby Knight Vindicator to Vecna.  Automatic Quicken Spell + Divine Impetus(sp?) is amusing.  7-8 level commitment though.

Yeah if I decide to go ToB that's probably what I'd do.  Any suggestions for which base class to use?  Crusader fits better thematically, but only Warblade offers both Iron Heart and White Raven.  I'm hesitant to use ToB though, because it would mean making the DM learn an entirely new system as well as making the party barbarian and monk even MORE obsolete.  

Oh, I guess now would be a good time to mention the rest of the party.  Beatstick:  Elven Dex-based 2H fighter (custom feat to Finesse a scythe while retaining PA multiplicity).  Skillmonkey: 2WF rogue with some strange wizard casting ability going daggerspell mage.  Ranged Support:  archer ranger with full druid wildshape and animal companion.Other: monk 20/custom prc to make it playable 3.  As you can see, the optimization of the table is incredibly low, but we routinely face encounters WELL above our CR.  Our DM fortunately recognizes our low level of optimization and routinely hands out things to make us more powerful, such as the rogue's spellcasting and the ranger's animal companion and wildshape.