Author Topic: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?  (Read 11952 times)

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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2011, 05:41:16 PM »
Well I'm trying to figure out exactly what and how to get it done. I like the idea of crazy decently high CL, but that takes some time to get to. I don't have the FR books so Incantrix and KotW are out. What is your view on Reserves of Strength removing the cap on spells? How about the War Mage PrC from Dragonlance as well?
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sirpercival

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2011, 05:47:35 PM »
I edited the post with another version, adding in Master Specialist so you can get Miracle at 19th level.  And, honestly these builds don't actually take too long to mature, because you're only one level behind in wizard casting compared to a straight wizard (equivalent to my Malconvoker), and as soon as you hit 9th level you'll be tossing around free metamagic like a boss.

I would seriously suggest trying to find champions of valor somewhere, because KotW makes it sooooo much cooler.  But just using sorcerer is fine too, you'll have to monkey with Practiced Spellcaster to make it really work.
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dna1

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2011, 06:02:41 PM »
Well I'm trying to figure out exactly what and how to get it done. I like the idea of crazy decently high CL, but that takes some time to get to. I don't have the FR books so Incantrix and KotW are out. What is your view on Reserves of Strength removing the cap on spells? How about the War Mage PrC from Dragonlance as well?

Im not familiar with the feat. Since I have a Co-DM I will go ahead and let him make the call on that..  :devil  Im liking this already  :smirk

Warmage is fine, I really dont care what campaign setting or material you use as long as you keep to a medium optimization level. I would say no frank/tome material because I havent looked at any of it. However you can always run something by me or Percival and see if either of us approve it..
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2011, 06:20:59 PM »
I have a friend with a fair number of FR books so I'll check if he has it.

Trying to see if I can find an early qualifier to get into UM before game play starts, but I don't see anything yet.

Well I'm trying to figure out exactly what and how to get it done. I like the idea of crazy decently high CL, but that takes some time to get to. I don't have the FR books so Incantrix and KotW are out. What is your view on Reserves of Strength removing the cap on spells? How about the War Mage PrC from Dragonlance as well?

Im not familiar with the feat. Since I have a Co-DM I will go ahead and let him make the call on that..  :devil  Im liking this already  :smirk

Warmage is fine, I really dont care what campaign setting or material you use as long as you keep to a medium optimization level. I would say no frank/tome material because I havent looked at any of it. However you can always run something by me or Percival and see if either of us approve it..
Well the War Mage PrC is in one of the DL books and it has some decent capabilities to help boost damage and defense. It is not the same as Warmage the class from CAr. Up to +3 damage per die rolled can get hefty, but it is still just damage.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

sirpercival

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2011, 06:35:50 PM »
Well you could be ECL6 with Wiz4/Sorc1/UM1, but KotW makes things neater IMO.  If you're going the sorc route, though, you could do this:

Evoker3/MS1/Sorc1/UM10/War Mage 3/MS +1/WM+1, that way you could get in 4 levels of war mage and still hit up Miracle at 19th level.  You lose 2 wizard levels of casting using sorc, though, because one of your UM levels has to progress sorc.

Adding War Mage to the KotW build (and still getting Miracle, again you don't have to do this but if you're an evoker why wouldn't you want to?) gives us Wiz 4/MS 1/KotW 1/UM 10/War Mage 1/MS +1/WM +2.  You only get 3 levels of War Mage, but you get Miracle two levels earlier and you only lose one wizard level.  Plus you are mixing campaign-specific sources for major awesomeness (throw in some Escalation Mage FTW).

I'm kewl with Reserves of Strength, but it's a pretty High-Op feat.  To take War Mage, though, you have to burn two feats and buy a third so it's not super optimized in itself.  I think it should be fine, especially since you'll need all the help you can get to make your blasting as effective as the rest of the party at mid-to-high levels.

Speaking of Escalation Mage, it's my new favorite PrC to mix with Minor Shapeshift.  Yay for free metamagics that hurt your temporary hp!
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2011, 06:42:07 PM »
The problem with wizards and mid optimization is that it's hard to do for a wizard.

I would like to jump in, but the build I have in mind is a master spellthief build. Abusing Bard+Wizard+Sublime Chord+Ultimate Magus to get insane caster level on his spells. Would the be okay? The optimization on that is rather obscene. I was planning to flavor it with some incantatrix, which will off course go even more out of hand.
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dna1

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2011, 06:59:55 PM »
SirPercival I replied to your PM.

The problem with wizards and mid optimization is that it's hard to do for a wizard.

I would like to jump in, but the build I have in mind is a master spellthief build. Abusing Bard+Wizard+Sublime Chord+Ultimate Magus to get insane caster level on his spells. Would the be okay? The optimization on that is rather obscene. I was planning to flavor it with some incantatrix, which will off course go even more out of hand.

Ya high levels that would be pretty optimized out, but at where we are starting it shouldnt be to bad. If you wanted to do some crazy optimizing on the class side you could always go less on the racial/template etc parts.
Im not really looking for game breaking builds here though. Honestly I wouldnt mind it, but I dont have the free time to sufficiently build encounters etc at that level of game play. With the medium optimization we can all have fun and keep it simple :p   
Or it could give you a chance to play something you wanted to try that had alot of flavor, but never actually did because it wasent optimal.

 :D
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2011, 07:26:26 PM »
Well what I'm trying to figure out is a way to incorporate Master Spellthief with the KotW to get a really high CL then use Reserves to actually get damage out of it. I was going to try and use Sorcerer but it requires gaining 2 effective levels to get in Spellthief, KotW, and the 1st level of UM before the game starts. Requires having flaws to get all the feats though, so I don't know if that will fly.

Here is the build thought assuming I wait until level 7 for UM:
Sorc 1/Spellthief 1/Sorc +3/KotW 1
Feats: Versatile Spellcaster (1st; used to qualify for having spells 1 level higher)
Arcane Preperation(Human; to qualify for UM)
Iron Will (flaw)
Metamagic feat (flaw)
Master Spellthief (3rd; stacks ST & all arcane classes for CL & cast spells in light armor)
Reserves of Strength (6th; Uncap my spells to take advantage of the CL)

edit: worst case I delay Reserves to 12th level and get iron will at 9th if I can't use the flaws. and grab a metamagic at 6th.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 07:38:28 PM by archangel.arcanis »
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

DrHorrible

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2011, 07:50:03 PM »
I thought I could take Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Arms and Magic Armors ( Craft Construct prerequisite ) and Craft Construct.

This way I'd use all my available feat slots but I could craft a couple of cool things.


What do you think? Any advice?

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Monotremeancer

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2011, 08:02:24 PM »
I always prefer to run a Medium optimization level. That way I dont have to keep to many notes on players, and I can focus more time on the actual game play. How ever if I had a Co-DM I might be willing to start at higher level, or allow crazy optimization.
This sounds good, I'll probably do some slight modifications to a Dread Necro I had to retire a short while back and submit him if there are no objections. He'll probably be up in a few hours

Edit: Would you be okay with me being a Necropolitan or should I just go Tomb Tainted Soul?

Either works fine for me, though if you did go necropolitan I would expect you to start at the -1 level from the template. So its up to you.
Do you want me to assume I got it at level 6 and thus returned to level 5 or may I take it at level 3? The difference would be that I'm 3000 XP behind the others instead of 6000.
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dna1

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2011, 08:24:20 PM »
Well what I'm trying to figure out is a way to incorporate Master Spellthief with the KotW to get a really high CL then use Reserves to actually get damage out of it. I was going to try and use Sorcerer but it requires gaining 2 effective levels to get in Spellthief, KotW, and the 1st level of UM before the game starts. Requires having flaws to get all the feats though, so I don't know if that will fly.

Here is the build thought assuming I wait until level 7 for UM:
Sorc 1/Spellthief 1/Sorc +3/KotW 1
Feats: Versatile Spellcaster (1st; used to qualify for having spells 1 level higher)
Arcane Preperation(Human; to qualify for UM)
Iron Will (flaw)
Metamagic feat (flaw)
Master Spellthief (3rd; stacks ST & all arcane classes for CL & cast spells in light armor)
Reserves of Strength (6th; Uncap my spells to take advantage of the CL)

edit: worst case I delay Reserves to 12th level and get iron will at 9th if I can't use the flaws. and grab a metamagic at 6th.

Looks pretty solid. Flaws will be allowed

I always prefer to run a Medium optimization level. That way I dont have to keep to many notes on players, and I can focus more time on the actual game play. How ever if I had a Co-DM I might be willing to start at higher level, or allow crazy optimization.
This sounds good, I'll probably do some slight modifications to a Dread Necro I had to retire a short while back and submit him if there are no objections. He'll probably be up in a few hours

Edit: Would you be okay with me being a Necropolitan or should I just go Tomb Tainted Soul?

Either works fine for me, though if you did go necropolitan I would expect you to start at the -1 level from the template. So its up to you.
Do you want me to assume I got it at level 6 and thus returned to level 5 or may I take it at level 3? The difference would be that I'm 3000 XP behind the others instead of 6000.
As long as you take the -1 level you can add it where ever you like.


I thought I could take Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Arms and Magic Armors ( Craft Construct prerequisite ) and Craft Construct.

This way I'd use all my available feat slots but I could craft a couple of cool things.


What do you think? Any advice?


Looks good, pregame crafting will be fine as long as everything is paid for. No free crafting schenanigans, idk if its possible at a low ecl like this. But I let a friend have pregame crafting once with his high level artificer and it was crazy lol
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2011, 08:49:17 PM »
Would metamagic applied using UM's augmented casting still require a full round for spontaneous casters? I don't know how much Metamagic I'll be using but I at least want to know if I should use the ACF to make it viable or go with a different one to help me survive a bit better. Both would trade away the familiar as my experience shows them to be a liability unless you do a form of the big guy is with me.

Working on my typical build spreadsheet now. I'll link to a google doc copy of it once I've got some more figured out.

edit: Let me make sure I have this correct.
KotW will always have a CL of my Sorc. CL+1 but its spells per day & spells known will depend on UM's +1 CL to spontanious. Does that sound right considering its strange wording?

Master ST just stacks Sorc CL & KotW CL +1 for my level of ST correct?

So at level 6 with the build layout I have my Sorcer CL is 4, My KotW CL is 5 (KotW levels + Any other Arcane CLs [friend did have book and sent me the info I needed]) Then with Master Spell thief it stacks my ST level with all other CLs for all arcane spells thus they all cast at CL10. Correct?

I just haven't used KotW before and the only time I used Master ST was in a simple form, so i want to make sure I didn't screw anything up.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 09:20:45 PM by archangel.arcanis »
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

DrHorrible

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2011, 09:15:31 PM »
I thought I could take Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Arms and Magic Armors ( Craft Construct prerequisite ) and Craft Construct.

This way I'd use all my available feat slots but I could craft a couple of cool things.


What do you think? Any advice?


Looks good, pregame crafting will be fine as long as everything is paid for. No free crafting schenanigans, idk if its possible at a low ecl like this. But I let a friend have pregame crafting once with his high level artificer and it was crazy lol
[/quote]

If I make some pregame crafting then I guess I'd be starting at 5th level cause of XP expenditure. ( expenditure?!  :lmao )
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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2011, 09:38:19 PM »
Well my first thought is a beguiler or illusionist specialist, themed around ravens (so with divination and necromancy as seconds). That is, however, a role that could become a huge pain in the ass for you, the DM. If you think illusions would be fine, and are ready for the incredible variety of uses they serve, I would be happy to fill that niche in the party. Otherwise, I'd be more than happy to craft something else, probably a crazy dwarf transmuter.

sirpercival

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2011, 09:57:31 PM »
Would metamagic applied using UM's augmented casting still require a full round for spontaneous casters? I don't know how much Metamagic I'll be using but I at least want to know if I should use the ACF to make it viable or go with a different one to help me survive a bit better. Both would trade away the familiar as my experience shows them to be a liability unless you do a form of the big guy is with me.

Working on my typical build spreadsheet now. I'll link to a google doc copy of it once I've got some more figured out.

edit: Let me make sure I have this correct.
KotW will always have a CL of my Sorc. CL+1 but its spells per day & spells known will depend on UM's +1 CL to spontanious. Does that sound right considering its strange wording?

Master ST just stacks Sorc CL & KotW CL +1 for my level of ST correct?

So at level 6 with the build layout I have my Sorcer CL is 4, My KotW CL is 5 (KotW levels + Any other Arcane CLs [friend did have book and sent me the info I needed]) Then with Master Spell thief it stacks my ST level with all other CLs for all arcane spells thus they all cast at CL10. Correct?

I just haven't used KotW before and the only time I used Master ST was in a simple form, so i want to make sure I didn't screw anything up.

Crap, I completely forgot about early entry. :banghead  Try this on for size:

Illumian Evo1/Spellthief1/MasterSpec2/KotW1/UM10/MS +3/Archmage 2

You take Improved Sigil: Krau at level 1 to qualify early for MS, and you can throw on Enhanced Power Sigils as well if you want.  You take Master Spellthief as well, of course.  Note that you can get Iron Will from Otyugh Hole for 3k, to qualify for Reserves (and/or Incantatrix if you want to rock that).  You can do a lot with Archmage, so you could take that for all 5 levels after UM if you don't care about Miracle.

Caster Levels: Spellthief 6 (7 with EnhPowSig), Evoker 31 (32 with EnhPowSig), Knight of the Weave 49 (51 with EnhPowSig).

Cons: Less Cha synergy than with Sorc, highest CL is off of crappy class list (KotW).

Pros: Only 2 lost wizard levels, very high caster levels, unlike the Sorc version you can actually make use of Enhanced Spell Knowledge and so can put Orb of Force or some other awesome blaster spell at level 6 or lower onto the KotW list and go nuts with Reserves of Strength, get Miracle as a wizard spell if you go with 3 levels of MS, get Skill Focus: Spellcraft for free to go into Archmage, and get spell power or mastery of shaping/elements or whatever from Archmage.

Thoughts?  Check my math?
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2011, 10:13:59 PM »
I believe the math is off. Master spellthief has all classes use the same CL that it calculates as the total of all arcane CL (other than ST) and ST levels. Here is my formula I was using to calculate it:
2(S+ASP)+KotW+ASP+ST
S is Sorcerer CL, ASP is Arcane spell power bonus (it adds to all arcane caster levels), KotW is actual levels of KotW (that is why S is multiplied because KotW is total Sorcerer caster level +1), and St is actual levels of Spell thief (they don't get an actual caster level until 4th class level)

I'm not sure how Illuman will factor into this yet I'll have to crack open that book and see.

edit: Realized why I was going Sorc and not something else. To get into KotW you need either BaB 5 or Spontanious casting of 3rd level spells. So I'd also need another feat to qualify in that.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 10:22:04 PM by archangel.arcanis »
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

sirpercival

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2011, 10:28:20 PM »
I believe the math is off. Master spellthief has all classes use the same CL that it calculates as the total of all arcane CL (other than ST) and ST levels. Here is my formula I was using to calculate it:
2(S+ASP)+KotW+ASP+ST
S is Sorcerer CL, ASP is Arcane spell power bonus (it adds to all arcane caster levels), KotW is actual levels of KotW (that is why S is multiplied because KotW is total Sorcerer caster level +1), and St is actual levels of Spell thief (they don't get an actual caster level until 4th class level)

I'm not sure how Illuman will factor into this yet I'll have to crack open that book and see.


You're right my math is off, but KotW also increases in CL due to UM, it's not just "Sorc +1".  You're gaining spellcasting levels from UM in both classes, albeit unequally.  So let me redo this.

Master Spellthief adds 1 to each CL, Krau Sigil adds +2 CL to every casting class, up to a limit of your character level (so apply this first, and you don't need Enhanced Power Sigils).  Thus, we have:

Evoker = 18 levels + 2 from EPS + 1 from Master Spellthief + 4 from Arcane Spell Power = 25, and more if you took Spell Power from Archmage.
Knight of the Weave = 25 from Evoker + 8 levels + 1 from Master Spellthief + 4 from Arcane Spell Power = 38 (again, more if Spell Power from Archmage).

Thus, with (say) an Orb of Force ported over to KotW with Expanded Spell Knowledge and using Reserves of Strength, you would do 41d8 damage.  Not bad... especially if you burned a 4th-level Evoker slot to Twin it for free.  2 4th-level slots for 82d8 damage, and you could spend 2 more to do Quicken another one.  Since you have a ring of Wizardry IV (because you're ECL 20), you have a lot of 4th-level spell slots to burn... :D

If you took 5 levels of Archmage and took Spell Power for each one (I don't suggest you do this, but you could), you would have and Evoker CL of 30 and a KotW CL of 48.

If you took a greater bloodline, it gets even more fun because you get an extra +3 CL on Evoker and +6 CL on KotW... but you'd be 17th level at an experience level of 20.  Unless you could take all 3 bloodline levels at 2nd level, and be 19th level (20th - 3000xp).

So... yeah.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2011, 10:34:40 PM »
From Master Spellthief, emphasis mine:
Quote
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack
when determining your caster level for all arcane spells .

They should all have the same CL from my understanding. Though much of it comes from the Red Wizard guide in which they actually made "rocks fall you die". Otherwise if they don't all stack together there isn't much point in taking any Spellthief as it doesn't net very much CL.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 10:38:52 PM by archangel.arcanis »
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

sirpercival

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2011, 10:36:48 PM »
From Master Spellthief, emphasis mine:
Quote
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack
when determining your caster level for all arcane spells .

How is that different from what I did?  You have one level of spellthief, so you get +1 CL on your Evoker spells.  KotW gets +1 CL from Master Spellthief as well, and takes all of the Evoker CL however it was generated.
Burn all the microfiche!  Firebomb all the 8-tracks!

I'm not just a druid -- I'm a singing, dancing, Broadway druid.

[spoiler]
Quote from: PhaedrusXY
"You... saved me? So I was dismantled? I... thank you, then. I will not incinerate you."

There's only one character concept worth having, and that's the one you've thrown darts at.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Anyone want to run an All-Wizard game?
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2011, 10:44:36 PM »
I made an edit to clarify my point. But I do understand where you are coming from on that. I guess it was just something to the Red wizard class that wouldn't really apply here. I'll just drop the spellthief in that case, as the 2 CL isn't worth delaying spells a level and feat. Now to figure this out as an Illumian wizard.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren