Author Topic: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM  (Read 69188 times)

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #280 on: October 17, 2011, 08:33:16 AM »
Q99:

Are there any rules that allows a character to replace the abilities of an existing magic weapon with a new one? Say, if a character has been 'gifted' with a magic weapon that he for fluff reasons would never get rid off, but the weapon is a +1 longsword of Shocking Burst?

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #281 on: October 17, 2011, 08:34:18 AM »
Q99:

Are there any rules that allows a character to replace the abilities of an existing magic weapon with a new one? Say, if a character has been 'gifted' with a magic weapon that he for fluff reasons would never get rid off, but the weapon is a +1 longsword of Shocking Burst?
I don't recall whereabouts it is, but I think there's an anvil that lets you do that. It's costly to do the ritual though.
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Littha

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #282 on: October 17, 2011, 01:00:28 PM »
Q99:

Are there any rules that allows a character to replace the abilities of an existing magic weapon with a new one? Say, if a character has been 'gifted' with a magic weapon that he for fluff reasons would never get rid off, but the weapon is a +1 longsword of Shocking Burst?

You could also get an artificer to break the new one for the Xp and use it to enhance the old one. Also expensive.

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #283 on: October 17, 2011, 01:25:27 PM »
Q99:

Are there any rules that allows a character to replace the abilities of an existing magic weapon with a new one? Say, if a character has been 'gifted' with a magic weapon that he for fluff reasons would never get rid off, but the weapon is a +1 longsword of Shocking Burst?

That's why you're a nice DM, and you give out mutable weapons. Like, "the knight gives you a..." "hey, what was that weapon you wanted?" "...+1 Iron Heart, Spinning Sword".

Failing that, a Wizard did it.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #284 on: October 17, 2011, 01:32:23 PM »
Q100: Nonassociated Class Levels. It says that the nonassociated levels count as 1/2 CR up to the creatures original HD, which I interpret as the HD straight from the book, unchanged, non-advanced. Am I right?
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #285 on: October 17, 2011, 01:35:46 PM »
Q100: Nonassociated Class Levels. It says that the nonassociated levels count as 1/2 CR up to the creatures original HD, which I interpret as the HD straight from the book, unchanged, non-advanced. Am I right?

Rules are pretty silent on the matter but I assume it includes advanced HD too. Either way it is a stupid system that is best left avoided.

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #286 on: October 17, 2011, 01:54:35 PM »
How "original HD" can be unclear? Seriously, I don't understand this.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 01:57:20 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Mooncrow

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #287 on: October 17, 2011, 02:03:21 PM »
In the context, it could easily mean "HD before taking class levels".

But +1 to Littha's comment - the non-associated level rules are idiotic.

ImperatorK

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #288 on: October 17, 2011, 02:14:55 PM »
In "Adding HD" section there's this:
Quote
When you improve a monster by adding Hit Dice, use Table: Improved Monster CR Increase to determine the effect on the creature’s CR. Keep in mind that many monsters that advance by adding Hit Dice also increase in size. Do not stack this CR increase with any increase from class levels.

I'm not sure if its bringing any light to the matter, but doesn't that mean "you either advance HD or add class levels"?
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #289 on: October 17, 2011, 02:45:52 PM »
Q101: What's the best (as in most optimized) way to reproduce the Shining Finger?  :p
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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #290 on: October 17, 2011, 03:30:11 PM »
Q101: What's the best (as in most optimized) way to reproduce the Shining Finger?  :p
invisible spell fling bolt for some-obscene-:umber-d6-damage?
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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #291 on: October 17, 2011, 03:34:20 PM »
In "Adding HD" section there's this:
Quote
When you improve a monster by adding Hit Dice, use Table: Improved Monster CR Increase to determine the effect on the creature’s CR. Keep in mind that many monsters that advance by adding Hit Dice also increase in size. Do not stack this CR increase with any increase from class levels.

I'm not sure if its bringing any light to the matter, but doesn't that mean "you either advance HD or add class levels"?

All it says is that advanced HD and class levels don't stack for purposes of CR.  The wording actually implies the opposite; that it is possible to do so.

ImperatorK

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #292 on: October 17, 2011, 03:58:17 PM »
Example in MM has a frost giant with his original (base) HD. It gives no examples of a monster with advanced HD.
Also, Original - "belonging or pertaining to the origin  or beginning of something, or to a thing at its beginning". An advanced monster isn't the original. RAW it might be unclear if you're one of those people who just search for ways to break rules, but RAI and looking at the context it is clear, at least to me. But I doubt that I will convince you (BTW, I'm not saying that you're a munchkin or anything like that, just talking about people in general).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 04:18:19 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

rot42

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #293 on: October 17, 2011, 04:05:16 PM »
Q99:

Are there any rules that allows a character to replace the abilities of an existing magic weapon with a new one? Say, if a character has been 'gifted' with a magic weapon that he for fluff reasons would never get rid off, but the weapon is a +1 longsword of Shocking Burst?

Bonded Magic Items - DMG II 231. Works sort of like Kensai (Complete Warrior 49). I think founding a Weapon of Legacy would also work.

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #294 on: October 17, 2011, 05:31:50 PM »
Example in MM has a frost giant with his original (base) HD. It gives no examples of a monster with advanced HD.
Also, Original - "belonging or pertaining to the origin  or beginning of something, or to a thing at its beginning". An advanced monster isn't the original. RAW it might be unclear if you're one of those people who just search for ways to break rules, but RAI and looking at the context it is clear, at least to me. But I doubt that I will convince you (BTW, I'm not saying that you're a munchkin or anything like that, just talking about people in general).

I should have been a little clearer in my second post - your second quote makes the original question moot.  When calculating challenge rating, your add either the advanced HD or the class levels, but not both.  So the answer to your first question is that you are correct.  The wording is such though, that it is clear that you can add both.

(I basically ignore the CR rules, so I have no horse in this race, btw, I'm just looking at the wording of the rules)

ImperatorK

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #295 on: October 17, 2011, 05:51:50 PM »
So you either add CR from the HD increase OR from class levels, whichever is higher? (isn't specified, but it can be assumed so)
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #296 on: October 17, 2011, 05:58:19 PM »
Q100: Nonassociated Class Levels. It says that the nonassociated levels count as 1/2 CR up to the creatures original HD, which I interpret as the HD straight from the book, unchanged, non-advanced. Am I right?

Rules are pretty silent on the matter but I assume it includes advanced HD too. Either way it is a stupid system that is best left avoided. "abused" by DM's whose players are rarely challenged by level-appropriate CR creatures.
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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #297 on: October 17, 2011, 06:01:52 PM »
So you either add CR from the HD increase OR from class levels, whichever is higher? (isn't specified, but it can be assumed so)

Yeah, that would be my assumption as well.

ImperatorK

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #298 on: October 17, 2011, 06:22:17 PM »
That's... crazy. :twitch (assuming that it is even allowed to add HD and class levels at the same time, which by RAW isn't disallowed... man is the CR system broken :banghead)
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

ImperatorK

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Re: Simple Q&A 29: The CR 5 Gargantuan Dragon of DOOM
« Reply #299 on: October 17, 2011, 07:57:13 PM »
Ah! I was all wrong. That rule I was quoting was talking about CR from size increase, not HD increase. I was making an idiot out of myself. :blush
CR system is still broken, but at least not in this case.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]