[3.5]Homebrew Race Balance

[Hansie]

I'm considering a campaign where the "standard" fantasy races are replaced with a similar set of replacement races.  This is partially a re-fluff, since I'm just a little sick of Elves, Dwarves, and everything with "Half" in it. I want to homebrew instead of searching for variant races because (a)  I don't own many sourcebooks and (b)  I'd like to limit the races to a relatively small number, to fit into the campaign setting.

What I'm concerned about here is balance.  I'd like all of the races to fall within the LA+0 power scale, and to come close to matching each other in terms of playability.  I don't have a ton of experience, so any thoughts or criticisms are welcome.  

V.2
Archetype 1: Strength

I'd like to replace the Half-Orc with something like a toned-down Half-Giant.  Big and slow, rather than Big, Dumb and Ugly.  

+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity
Medium size
20' Base speed but not reduced by armor or heavy load.
Powerful Build
Intimidating:  +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks

Other characteristics?

Archetype 2: Grace

This is the noble class, and might be closest to Humans in the base game.  

+2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
Medium size
30' speed
Genealogy:  +2 bonus on Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) checks
Hobbyist:  Add 1 skill of your choice your to list of class skills.  Gain 4 free ranks in this skill at first level.
Bonus Feat: 1 extra feat at 1st level.

Other characteristics?

Archetype 3: Sneak

Something like an elf, though re-themed in some way.  Hopefully -2 strength fits with more builds than -2 constitution.

+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength
Small size
30' Speed
60' Darkvision
+2 racial bonus on Spot, Listen, and Move Silently

Other characteristics?

Archetype 4: Worker

Very similar to Dwarves, but without the associations with living underground: these guys are the peasants and laborers of the world.

+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma
Medium size
30' Speed
+1 racial bonus on all saving throws
+2 racial bonus on all Craft or Profession checks
Strong Back:  Your carrying capacity is increased by 50%.

Other Characteristics?

Archetype 5: Scholar

My idea of what gnomes should be, basically. Wrinkly little scholars, clerks, bureaucrats, or merchants.

+2 Intelligence, -2 Strength
Small
20' Speed
Low Light Vision
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

Other characteristics?

Archetype 6: Seer

A "wild" race, with savage wisdom of some sort, since wisdom does fit with a lot of the nature skills, like Spot, Listen, Survival.

+2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
Medium
30' speed,
Weapon Proficiency:  Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
Low Light Vision
+2 racial bonus to Survival and Knowledge (Nature) checks

[SodaliteSabre]

A Watchman or scout seems like it would fit for an archetype with a boost to wisdom, based on the fact that it represents perceptiveness more than it does sagaciousness.

[Hansie]

Thanks Sabre, yeah, I was thinking that a Wisdom race would work for plenty of builds beyond Cleric/Druid, including all sorts of scouts.  I'm not sure about the intelligence penalty, though. I only picked intelligence because none of the other races hit it. 

[SneeR]

Not sure why a person with a +2 WIS would have a -2 INT if they are "seers."

I think that the Grace race needs a -2 CON to balance out the good stuff, especially since that will be the go-to for sorcerers. Nobles don't get a lot of chances to get out and expose themselves to things or stay fit.

The Worker is going to be what almost every melee-type goes for. Bonus to CON and extra skill points are great. Just expect that.

I really like these races. They are a clever take for LA 0. Good job!

[Hansie]

Thanks Sneer, you hit upon some of the same concerns I have.

What do other people think of the Nobles?  Constitution is the obvious penalty, and I'll add it if they aren't balanced, but I don't want them to become off-limits for melee builds.  It seems like most of the CO posts on this site say "pick anything but elf," which is why I didn't have any Constitution penalties.

If it matters (and it might), I was considering using these races with a low-level, low-optimization campaign.  Under these circumstances, I think the Charisma bonus isn't that huge of a deal.

For the Wisdom race, what stat should I penalize?  I think the intelligence penalty fits with a less civilized race, that relies more on their intuitive connection with the world around them than analytical ability.  The only concern I have is I'd like this race to be usable with a scout/skill-monkey build.

[SneeR]

wild and impulsive=difficult to relate to=CHA penalty.
You could put the ranks you get from that extra point of INT and make up for the CHA penalty in spades if you want to be a skill monkey.
However, the only place a WIS bonus and bow proficiency will be useful is in cleric.

I would actually make the sneak Small. That automatically gives +4 to Hide and -4 to grappling, encouraging combat avoidance.

I'll be honest: the Grace doesn't necessarily need a CON penalty because its bonuses are utterly unremarkable (sort of like a half-elf). If you want them to be more flavorful, give them more bonuses, then add the CON penalty.

[kurashu]

I really like these races. They are a clever take for LA 0. Good job!

I second this sentiment. As well as imposing the negative to charisma on the seer/wild child "race"

As far as the noble, honestly the things that break using Charisma is smaller than the things that break using Intelligence or Wisdom. Leave the charisma bonus alone and expect most of your sorcers and bards to have noble inheritances.

[Hansie]

Thanks!

You've convinced me on +Wis/-Cha.

In general, I'm interested in adding a few flavor bonuses or options to each race, things that make them more interesting, but not much more powerful.  Any ideas are welcome. 

A few more specific questions:

Strength:  Will this race seem too powerful at very early levels?  I'm thinking of starting at level 2, and progressing pretty slowly from there, so the ability to dish out massive melee damage is still pretty powerful. 

Grace: Are these guys worth playing outside of directly Charisma-based classes?  I'd like them to be a decent option for any build.  I would consider giving them access to a minor spell-like ability, similar to Gnomes.

Sneak:  I have these at Medium size because I've never really been able to buy the idea of a 3' tall bad-ass.  If I shrank them to Small, I'd like to keep the 30' speed. 

Worker:  Are these guys too powerful?  On a second look, they seem like a default race for anything that doesn't involve charisma.  Extra hit points and great saves make them tough, extra skill points make them versatile.

Scholar:  I think I'll give these guys an Appraise boost (they aren't just scholars, I think the final name might be something like "Guildmen")

Seer/Wildling: Would increasing their base speed to 40' break balance?  I like the idea of a faster race.

[SneeR]

Yeah, Strength really is powerful at lower levels. Look at how the goliath resolves this in Races of Stone. I would suggest a -4 DEX penalty to make up for it. That firmly cements them as strong and lumbering. That would prebably be all you needed.

I'll be honest with you: Grace is not worth it to anyone but perhaps a social skill monkey who doesn't cast off CHA. That's what I meant by a lack of flavor. Spell-like abilities aren't going to help; I hate the gnome's for that very reason.
If you gave the Grace a bonus feat at first level and a -2 CON, they would be used a great deal, be balanced, and replace humans.

Sneak: ever heard of the whisper gnome? 30 ft move, +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently, +2 CON, -2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CHA, Small, broken as all get-out, but only for rogues, LA 0. That should be your goal, just not broken.

So, yes, makes Sneaks small, with a 30 ft move speed. That's balanced.

Your concern with the Worker is valid. Maybe nix the skill points?

[Hansie]

Good points, all.

I don't want to give anyone a -4 in anything.  It seems to me that any +/- greater than 2 limits the race too much in terms of typecasting.  Ideally, once I've developed the fluff a bit more, players will be able to find a good reason to go against the grain for any of these classes. 

For Strength, I'm hoping that the two penalties, -2 dex and 20' speed, are enough to make up for the positives. Part of the fluff I was considering for this race was that it would not follow the normal aging routine, but would just continue to grow, resulting increased Size and Strength, but rapidly declining Dex, and perhaps mental stats as well. They wouldn't so much die of old age as outgrow their frame.

For Grace I think I'll give them a bonus feat.

Whisper Gnomes seem so hideously broken that I don't like to compare anything to them.

[SneeR]

Looking at the Strength, I think that they are fine.

The Worker needs to lose the Save bonus or the Skill Points. The Save bonus is definitely more minor, so I think the skill points are what really tip the scales for every class in their favor. Do what you will with this.

What sort of plot or setting are you cooking up to go aong with these races?

[bkdubs123]

Bonus feat for Grace with -2 Con? That seems to work for me. I like it.

I wouldn't however lose the Worker's +1 to all saves. That's awesome and I like it. I suppose get rid of the extra skill points if you feel like you have to get rid of anything. Though it would suck to lose those... The charisma penalty fits, but from a balance standpoint it really doesn't take anything meaningful away from the character... don't know... sorry.

[ThisGuy01]

For the workers, what about rolling the skills and craft bonus into one thing.  something like they are treated as trained in all craft skills with 2 ranks.  if they have ranks in any craft skill, they get a +2 bonus on rolls with it?

[SneeR]

For the workers, what about rolling the skills and craft bonus into one thing.  something like they are treated as trained in all craft skills with 2 ranks.  if they have ranks in any craft skill, they get a +2 bonus on rolls with it?

No, no, no! Never do any of that "you get bonus ranks" shananigans. It wreaks of poorly-made homebrew, and is unduly complicated. What you do is give and unnamed +2 bonus on 1 type of Profession or Craft, and that skill is always a class skill. That represents mild specialization.

[Hansie]

What do you think of an Int. penalty for the nobles, instead of a Constitution penalty?

Constitution makes sense, thematically, but it just hurts so, so much.  I think I can make Intelligence work thematically as well.  Charismatic lords and ladies aren't really required to use their heads for real analytical thinking.  This would make them a pretty decent choice for anything but a wizard or an extreme skill-monkey, instead of making them a suboptimal choice for any melee builds... and losing Wizard isn't much of a hit, with Sorcerer being a natural class for them.

If I did this, and put the Seer penalty in Charisma, I have this breakdown by archetype:

Melee Fighter:  Strength (best), Worker (very good), Grace (good), Seer (ok), Sneak (poor), Scholar (just plain bad)
Scout/Skill/Rogue:  Sneak (best), Scholar (very good), Seer (good), Worker (ok), Grace (poor), Strength (bad)
Divine Caster: Seer (best), everyone else usable, depending on build
Arcane Caster:  Noble/Scholar (best for Sorcerer/Wizard), everyone else usable, depending on build, though an unarmored Strength character kind of misses the point.

[SneeR]

What do you think of an Int. penalty for the nobles, instead of a Constitution penalty?

Constitution makes sense, thematically, but it just hurts so, so much.  I think I can make Intelligence work thematically as well.  Charismatic lords and ladies aren't really required to use their heads for real analytical thinking.  This would make them a pretty decent choice for anything but a wizard or an extreme skill-monkey, instead of making them a suboptimal choice for any melee builds... and losing Wizard isn't much of a hit, with Sorcerer being a natural class for them.

If I did this, and put the Seer penalty in Charisma, I have this breakdown by archetype:

Melee Fighter:  Strength (best), Worker (very good), Grace (good), Seer (ok), Sneak (poor), Scholar (just plain bad)
Scout/Skill/Rogue:  Sneak (best), Scholar (very good), Seer (good), Worker (ok), Grace (poor), Strength (bad)
Divine Caster: Seer (best), everyone else usable, depending on build
Arcane Caster:  Noble/Scholar (best for Sorcerer/Wizard), everyone else usable, depending on build, though an unarmored Strength character kind of misses the point.

I think you may be too concerned with letting the nobles branch out from the role that a CHA boost will put them in. However, doing so is actually hurting. Poor sorcerer's need skill points pretty bad, but INT is defintely one of their dump stats. An 11-2=1 skill point per level=no PrCs EVAR.
Bards are wannabe skillmonkeys. INT penalty is bad for that goal.
Social Rogues? Same problem.

Overall, I wouldn't be concerned about anyone taking the noble for non-mechanical reasons. Are you expecting a fighter to want a CHA bump? A rogue? Rogues need skill points more than CHA. A wizard?
The INT penalty also means thematically that no noble would ever be an natural wizard. Don't nobles take up the hobby of studying magic?

Just as elves are archers to avoid being hit and to take advantage of their DEX, think about how the race's physical chassis behooves what role you want them to play!

[Maat_Mons]

For grace, I think a wisdom penalty would suit a group likely to have lived sheltered lives.  I do think a penalty to will saves runs against the theme though.  Perhaps it would work with an ability like this. 

Ego: You add your charisma bonus (instead of your wisdom bonus) to will saves. 

Here are some ideas for minor perks the workers could get. 

Strong Back: Your carrying capacity is 1.5 times normal. 

Push On: You need only 4 hours of sleep a day.  You take only half the normal penalties to strength and dexterity from fatigue and exhaustion, and you need only half the normal length of time to recover from these conditions.  You can move at 2/3 your normal speed when exhausted. 

Endurance: You gain endurance as a bonus feat. 

[Hansie]

Nice ideas Maat.


Sneer, My concern is simply that I'd prefer all of my races have some versatility, so people could do non-obvious things with them.  You might be right about INT. 

I would imagine that melee builds would take Nobles for the extra Feat I'm giving them (just like humans).  I would like the nobles to be kick-ass Paladins or Sorcadins. My biggest problem with Constitution, though, is that it hurts all of the classes pretty badly.  Melee fighters need the HP because they get hit a lot.  Sorcerers need the HP because they don't have any, otherwise.

Thematically, I am perfectly fine with the Nobles not being wizards.  If you want to be an arcane Noble, be a Sorcerer.  There is something inherently magical in their bloodline... in fact, perhaps all arcane casting comes from this.  Wizards are cheap knock-offs of natural casting (even if they do it better), and most Nobs look down their noses on them as mere scribes and fakers.