Author Topic: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?  (Read 5441 times)

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Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« on: September 27, 2011, 01:24:03 PM »
Anyone know the official standing on early entry to a prestige class? I keep seeing it, but seems to me to be an overly overpowered cheat/trick that will require an massively friendly DM to be allowed - or am I wrong?

Bozwevial

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 01:26:23 PM »
There isn't really an official stance because the methods of early entry are pretty different.

Still, if you meet the qualifications, there should be no reason you can't get in except for RP reasons or something.

weenog

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 03:02:20 PM »
This might not sound especially friendly, but if you're using words like "overpowered" and "cheat" in all seriousness to describe character optimization, are you really going to accept any answer from us?  Sounds like you've already made up your mind.  You'd be surprised what the rules of the game actually enable with no help at all from friendly DMs, how well do you cope with surprise?
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Unbeliever

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 03:03:41 PM »
+1

Also, early qualification is a nice mechanism to (a) improve classes that are weak in various ways, (b) get your concept out to the table earlier.  Both have virtues. 

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 03:10:10 PM »
It's kind of hard to define what "early entry" is, also. Does a multiclassed monk 1/cleric 2 entering Master of Shrouds count? It's not bending any rules at all, but is almost certainly getting into the PrC earlier than the designers anticipated.
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weenog

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 03:12:04 PM »
What about early entry that's funny to think about but totally sucks?  Commoner 1/Survivor 5 for example.
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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 03:15:46 PM »
Anyone know the official standing on early entry to a prestige class? I keep seeing it, but seems to me to be an overly overpowered cheat/trick that will require an massively friendly DM to be allowed - or am I wrong?

Don't ask an internet forum, ask your dm. He's the only official involved. The official wotc stance is that if you meet the prereqs you meet them.

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 03:16:13 PM »
What about early entry that's funny to think about but totally sucks?  Commoner 1/Survivor 5 for example.

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 03:45:27 PM »
It's hard to call something "overpowered" when the entire system is set up to facilitate that level of power.

In most systems, once you have achieved mastery of the rules, you have to consciously decide to make an overpowered character, and then work to accomplish it.

In 3.5, once you have achieved mastery of the rules, you have to consciously decide to REFRAIN from making an overpowered character, and then work to accomplish it.

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 06:20:39 PM »
In 3.5, once you have achieved mastery of the rules, you have to consciously decide to REFRAIN from making an overpowered character, and then work to accomplish it.
Read: Don't play anything with any more spellcasting power than a Bard.

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 06:36:39 PM »
Overpowered is a term relative to the gaming group/campaign.

As far as early entry goes, the act uses so many feats and skills that it really isn't that powerful. Yes you can get tons of spells and abilities, but at the cost of having more high level spells and few feats.

For instance; it's freaky what a straight basex/prcx caster can do with all their feats available. Focused, specialized, quickened, empowered, ray, split, repeating and at 6 caster level above you is hard to face head to head.

No number of lower level spells will save you.

So early entry is of great use to support characters and stand alone sneaks, but no use to blasters and such.

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 06:44:42 PM »
Overpowered is a term relative to the gaming group/campaign.


True, but the bar's set pretty darned high by default, simply by the existence of clerics and druids and wizards.

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 07:15:26 PM »
What about early entry that's funny to think about but totally sucks?  Commoner 1/Survivor 5 for example.

+1

Some early entries are significantly worse than a non-early entry build.

Let's say a PrC has one of those 8 Ranks of skill X requirements.
You can take Favored feat for a +2 to one skill = worse than skill focus feat,
and Primary Contact (a.k.a. That Feat In Cityscape) to get
the skill "rank" requirement one level early, traded for 2 feat slots.

Weak sauce.
It's only if you can PsyRef those later (and not all DMs like this)
that this is even reasonable over the scale of 5 levels or so.
That PrC better be worth it.

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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 11:08:17 PM »
Knowing the game better than the official authors gives you license to do what you want within your GM's rules.  If that means entering things sooner than intended, so be it.
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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 09:40:44 PM »
Anyone know the official standing on early entry to a prestige class? I keep seeing it, but seems to me to be an overly overpowered cheat/trick that will require an massively friendly DM to be allowed - or am I wrong?

The official standing is that you qualify for something when you meet its prerequisites. By definition, all legal early entry tricks are just that - legal. They meet all the entry requirements, just at a lower-than-anticipated level. It's only cheating if you aren't meeting the requirements for something.

And considering that full spellcasters and team monster* double in power level every two levels, early entry tricks aren't even overpowered comparitively.

* By CR, everyone is supposed to do this. In practice, only full spellcasters and some monsters hold to this standard past very low levels
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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2011, 03:38:46 PM »
Anyone know the official standing on early entry to a prestige class? I keep seeing it, but seems to me to be an overly overpowered cheat/trick that will require an massively friendly DM to be allowed - or am I wrong?
Early entry by default is allowed, so long as you meet the prerequisites you can advance the class.

A "clean" early entry would be like multiclassing to increase your Will Save for Master of Shrouds. A comparatively weaker PrC by design but if you entered three levels early it isn't bad (the super great though). Whereas a "dirty" early entry would be something that don't have 100% of rule support, and it probably isn't it always related to the PrC in question. Like...

A. Sage has answered that Versatile Caster can in fact be used to cast spells a level higher than you have access to, so it falls to personal interpretation on what does it mean to cast 2nd level spells. It is your class's progression that is ability to cast 2nd level spells, or the end result though various other means? We've hammered on this to a point where Op as a whole generally accepts Versatile Caster (for spellcasting) + Heighten Spell (for known). Earth Power and Sanctum Spell both operate like a free +1 bonus to Heighten Spell but lack the override-like support found in Versatile Caster, not to mention Sage ruling on Sanctum Spell doesn't interact with Extra Spell the way you wished it would.

B. Do items qualify? PrCs want X ability, there is no note as to how X must be obtained. So yes items can work but always be mindful of of a few things: a) loss of the item means loss of all prc's class features. b) Spell Trigger items are not the ability to cast spells. c) Some DMs won't allow it.

C. The cheapass stuff no one really allows but some members like the cheese, if even for a moment. Dragonspawn Abomination chance manipulation for example can give NI Sorcerer levels of spellcasting is one. The most well known one of course is Loredrake, breaking some rule or another you can obtain two levels worth of Sorcerer spellcasting. Often you'll see these two things used together, because if your going for broke, at least do it with style. Some to no support here, for instance Gestated has more threads based on it being allowed than TD Kobolds.

Those "dirty" tricks have less to do with PrC requirements and are an "overly overpowered cheat/trick" based on obtaining something else, typically spellcasting progression, early which has it's own problems and useful effects. PrCs are just the icing on the cake so to speak.
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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2011, 07:16:30 PM »
The closest i can think of to 'cheating' without really cheating:

Using an ability that according to rules "functions exactly like x". Ex; CC lore ability says 'functions exactly like bardic knowledge', and never says different.

I won't use an animal companion for a familiar or anything like that. Of course if everybody at the table was cheese dippin' then i would, just for fun.
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Re: Whats Sage verdict on Early Entry to prestige classes?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2011, 06:27:10 PM »
Huh?
My weenie filter kicked in for a day.
Maybe there was too much "dirty" and "early" and "legal" ...  :eh

Knowing the game better than the official authors gives you license to do what you want within your GM's rules.  If that means entering things sooner than intended, so be it.

'nother +1


Divine Mind 1 with Death MGA + Aura
... has two 2nd level Psi (su) effects based on powers.
You could use it as an early entry for something.
You "could" use Divine Mind as an early entry.
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