Author Topic: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice  (Read 4264 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Aliek

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 66
    • Email
First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« on: September 27, 2011, 04:15:25 AM »
As the title says, this will be my first psionic and incarnum character. I've seen a couple psions being played, but this will be our first time with meldshaping.

As an avid min-maxer, albeit mostly starting out, I want to try new stuff. So I thought about a tashalatora character. But then, I'm not really so keen on leaving the systems I know more about, so I got some ur-priest in there. Totemist for natural attacking too, and ardent for both WIS synergy and 9th level powers

The build I had in mind for now is something close to Monk 1/Ardent 7/Totemist 2/Ur-priest 1/Psychic Theurge 9
Could probably do psycarnum infusion->midnight metamagic for some not so intensive on CHA persisting, with divine soultouch.

All in all, I got a couple problems with that. I should get more powers by psychic chirurgery or something, for as an ardent they will be few and far between. Not entirely sure how my soulmelds that grant natural attacks would work if I use metamorphosis, and neither the bonus unarmed damage from monk.

I can use psionic open chakra for binding soulmelds, but is there any easy way to get extra soulmelds to be bound without more levels in totemist?

By the way, my DM has ruled that a PrC that advances a certain class counts as that class for tashalatora purposes. Still, that is going to be very feat intensive. Probably going with illumian for the fast entrance to psychic theurge, or I could do sanctum spell and go with another race. Azurin, perhaps? Extra essentia would be awesome.

The idea would be to be a gish. Charge them, deal awesome damage with loads of natural attacks and still be a potent divine spellcaster/manifester.

Any ideas, advice, suggestion, criticism, comments and free items welcome.just kidding about the free items :lmao

~Aliek

Bigtuna

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 09:39:13 AM »

rot42

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 11:16:09 AM »
Not entirely sure how my soulmelds that grant natural attacks would work if I use metamorphosis, and neither the bonus unarmed damage from monk.

MoI 169: Body Shape and Chakras says that your chakra access depends on your current physical form and that most forms have most chakras. I think that any change in claw damage is not spelled out except if your size changes, but "use the better claw damage" seems reasonable; the dragon soulmelds in Dragon Magic spell this out.

Quote
I can use psionic open chakra for binding soulmelds, but is there any easy way to get extra soulmelds to be bound without more levels in totemist?

The Shape Soulmeld feat? Hardly ideal, but, well, you are trying to cram an awful lot into one build. Note that the incarnum-wielding classes separate chakra access and number of binds, making it controversial to interpret the power as giving you a second bind as well as allowing access to that chakra.

Your base attack and hit points are going to be in the toilet, so choose your spells and forms wisely. What Ardent mantles are you looking at? You know about the write-your-own-mantle ACF?

kurashu

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • K?
    • Androgynous Moose Hippy
    • Email
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 01:54:10 PM »
I have to second the way too much sentiment.

Honestly, totemist 2/ardent 6/unarmed swordsage 2/soul manifester 10 is better than levels in monk -- but what isn't?

Obviously, switch your progression around as needed as long as you have an even number of levels before swordsage. Pick up the Shadow Blade feat to ease up on MAD and assassins stance for a damage boost. Grab some low level tiger claw maneuvers for thematic reasons.

Swordsage 4 is even worth it but then you're losing another two powers known.

If you're wanting a psionic unarmed fighter -- psychic warrior is really the way to go. If you're wanting an incarnum claw fighter, you simply cannot beat the totem rager. Combining the two and maintaining the viability of both is very difficult without something like gestalt.

Aliek

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 66
    • Email
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 02:19:01 PM »
Yeah, this build may be a little too much a "one-man party". But then there's this gentleman's agreement so I won't overdo it. I'll probably chose mantles more fit for a gish, tough I'm not too well versed in what powers are avaiable for which mantle. Having vigor+share pain would be very nice, so much as to fix my relatively low hp problem. Divine power can fix the BAB. Maybe physical power, pain and suffering mantles first, and natural world later. Kind of a "No pain, no gain" thing. I have to fit them in the fluff of my character, tough I could probably get a few key powers at higher levels from chirurgery, maybe even as rewards for helping NPCs.

I take it ardents can't research new powers, right?
And if I can get only a single soulbind, which one would give the most natural attacks that can stack with an unarmed sequence, if any of them can, that is? I'm not too keen on thri-kreens for I'd probably spend quite some time metamorphosied... Perhaps even into a thri-kreen?  :lmao

Bigtuna

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 02:21:24 PM »
Totemist rager is IMHO not all that great - a barbarian 1 dip - for pounce and extra rage and your good.
Totemist rager loses 2 meldshaper levels - don't the the totemist 11 double soulmeld ability and delay acces to the shoulder bind ability - and for what? 5 ekstra essentia while raging, a little longer rage, and 2 ekstra rage/day, and d10's instead of d8's (that ~10 hp over 10 levels) - the loss of meldshaper levels cost you essentia, and without the need for cobalt rage you might be able to fit shocktrooper into the build earliere. (and if you get pounce from bar1 or the power lion charge, og sphinx bind - you'll WANT shocktrooper and leap attack)

Also if you go for a swordsage2 dip - consider bloodclaw master 1 - add full str to off-hand/secondary attacks - should work even if you have more than one secondary attack (but ask your GM). Note that shpinx claws gives you full str on secondary claw attacks right away - but then you only get 2 claw attacks. Warblade 1/Bloodclaw master 1 is also an option.

Shadow blade + weaponfinesse (you could get from a hand bind) would get you dex to to hit/dam, and ACF to barbarian from cityscape add's to Dex.
But you are feat starved as it is - so i would recommend focus on str, con and wis.




kurashu

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 719
  • K?
    • Androgynous Moose Hippy
    • Email
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 06:25:52 PM »
Yeah, this build may be a little too much a "one-man party". But then there's this gentleman's agreement so I won't overdo it.

What's going to happen is that you're going to so scattered you won't know what you can do and how well you can do it. And you'll be so behind on all of your abilities that getting to a high level will be a feat in and of itself - in addition to the campaign having that longevity.

Look in the handbook section for the Totemist Handbook and the general incarnum handbook as well.

Bigtuna

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 07:07:37 PM »
Totem binds that grants natural attacks that stack with unarmed strike:

Blood talons (hands becomes claws 1d6 dam) - monks can use his albue knee (bad bind)
Girallions bind - works (gain 4 claw attacks (1d4 +essentia dam)) - I must have remembered incorrectly. These are the claws you are looking for!
Kruthik Claws  hands become claws (1d6 +1d4:essentia dam) - just better than Blodtalons
Lamia (becomes a lion below the waist - gain +2 secondary claw attacks (1d4 no enhancment)
Sphinx claws (hands comes 1d8 claws - full str bonus - if you plan to add damage by adding size (imp natural attack, expansion, tomtem avatar shoulder bind) these are the claws for you...

Garryl

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1240
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2011, 01:47:38 AM »
The build I had in mind for now is something close to Monk 1/Ardent 7/Totemist 2/Ur-priest 1/Psychic Theurge 9
Could probably do psycarnum infusion->midnight metamagic for some not so intensive on CHA persisting, with divine soultouch.

Monk 1/Ardent 2/Totemist 2/Soul Manifester 5/Ur-Priest 1/Psychic Theurge 9 gives just about the same thing but with 5 more Meldshaper levels (+2 soulmelds, +3 essentia, +1 bind), Psionic Investment 1 (invest 1 essentia into a power to get +1 ML and DC 1/day for each invested power). However, it costs the 4th mantle and another feat (Azure Talent) which you may not have.
A Guide to Free D&D - A resource of free, official D&D resources on the web.
General listing of my homebrew.
Links to things I've worked on
[spoiler]
Idiot Crusader, refreshing maneuvers for free every round.
The Opposed Checks Handbook - Under construction.
Adaptations Handbook - Under construction.
[/spoiler]

Chilastra022

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2011, 04:23:24 PM »
Im playing a similar character (in theme anyway, but goes about it different - read: more cheesily). Shes actually the group healer (go figure) but her build allows her to be one hell of a nasty gish if ever needed. Like your group theres that unspoken agreement where you can make cheesy characters (As long as they're legal) so long as you dont break the game with them or overshadow the other characters. The way i go about it is using binder 1 / Erudite 3 / Anima Mage 10 / Tenebrous Apostate 5 / Thrallherd 1. The thrall/believers run a brothel for income/info gathering. Thrall is a  99s arcane/divine caster.

Erudite 3 + Anima Mage 10 + Tenebrous Apostate 5 + Thrallherd 1 = 17th level manifestation
Added: Spell to Power ACF
Final Psionics - Access to: 9th level Powers, 8th level discipline powers, 8th level Arcane, 8th level Divine.

Binder 1 + Improved Binding (+2) + Anima Mage 10 + Tenebrous Apostate 5 = 17th level soul-binding
Final Soul-Binding: 8th level vestiges (highest possible), 3 free metapsionic uses/day,

The build can more than adequately fulfill the roles of : Sneaker, Ranged DD, Melee DD, Healer, Divination, Crowd Control, Main Tank, Crafter, Minion Master and Party Face.

But the point is, you can do something similar with totemist - you could replace the ardent levels with erudite, and the ur-priest level with thrallherd, in turn you'd gain access to not just divine and psionic powers, but arcane to boot. More importantly youd gain access to the psychic warrior powers which are pretty handy for psionic gishes. If you dont mind relying on divine power and vigor to keep you going that is!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 04:27:22 PM by Chilastra022 »

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2011, 05:18:20 PM »
People have kinda gone off the rails from making this into a Soul Manifester and instead making a 9/9 Psionic/Divine character.

First, you want to draw heavily from this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a

That's the definitive Psionics/Incarnum PrC, although it doesn't really lend itself well to gishing (obviously).

That said, you can make yourself a decent melee combatant if you go with a Psion (Egoist).  Think something along the lines of Totemist 2/Egoist 3/Monk 1/Soul Manifester 10/[Full Manifesting] 4.  Use Metamorphosis to turn into something big and ugly and then throw down a full round of unarmed strikes followed by a nasty natural attack progression (augmented by your totem chakra's natural attacks).  Ardent is also an option, but if you want more of a pure manifester approach then a Psion's versatility can outweigh the raw power of an Egoist.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2011, 06:02:28 PM »
This is incorrect. The power explicitly allows you to bind a soulmeld, but you must have one to bind for it to work, and it doesn't say that you must have an open bind available (as it would be virtually useless then).

Alternately, you can bind a magic item, if you don't have a soulmeld to bind. My favorite is meta(psionic) rods and low level psionic powers. +1 ML for an Extended Astral Construct? YES!
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Chilastra022

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2011, 06:32:49 PM »
People have kinda gone off the rails from making this into a Soul Manifester and instead making a 9/9 Psionic/Divine character.

I wasn't attempting to derail the thread or character concept. He was wanting to achieve effective natural attacks along with still being a potent divine/psionic caster. So i suggested he replace his ardent and urpriest levels with erudite/thrallherd levels to achieve that much, while still retaining the soul manifester and totemist levels. This would have given him a stronger manifesting aspect than what he had. Since not only would he be getting divine/psionic powers like he was wanting, but also access to arcane spells to boot. The loss of BAB and HD can be easily made up for to give him the BAB and HP he'd lose from switching out of ardent, with just a few powers/spells, and his meleeing ability would benefit even more thanks to gaining access to psychic warrior powers.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 06:43:18 PM by Chilastra022 »

Bigtuna

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2011, 06:51:33 PM »
Quote
This is incorrect. The power explicitly allows you to bind a soulmeld, but you must have one to bind for it to work, and it doesn't say that you must have an open bind available (as it would be virtually useless then).

Well I WANT the power (and the spell for that matter) to work that way. But then there's the whole "just as if he had gained the ability to form a chakra bind from a feat or class feature" - would you say that the feats "open chakra" also gives this ability? Or are the class feature just which chakra's are open - not how many chakra binds...

Or are you suggestion that the feat we are talking about is the epic feat "extra chakra bind"? a 4 lvl power that gives an epic feat - that would be pretty awesome! '



Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2011, 07:27:07 PM »
Well I WANT the power (and the spell for that matter) to work that way. But then there's the whole "just as if he had gained the ability to form a chakra bind from a feat or class feature" - would you say that the feats "open chakra" also gives this ability? Or are the class feature just which chakra's are open - not how many chakra binds...

Or are you suggestion that the feat we are talking about is the epic feat "extra chakra bind"? a 4 lvl power that gives an epic feat - that would be pretty awesome! '
Open Chakra would have to work that way as well; otherwise, what does it do? You shape soulmelds with the Shape Soulmeld feat, and Open Chakra (or Psionic Open Chakra) allows you to bind them.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 07:28:44 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bigtuna

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2011, 08:03:50 PM »
So if I play a totemist 5/warmind 4/soulmanifester 6 I would have 70 PP + ~30 from my wis score.
And have 6 soulmelds and 3 chakra bind from totemist levels- totem, crown, feet hands would be open.

I would start the day with opening my shoulder, arms and browns (3x 13 = 39 PP) and then open throat and waist (2x 17 = 34 PP)

Now I would have - with your intrepretation -  8 chakra binds? - I would even have to take shape soulmeld a few times to fill them out...

Feats: azure talent, education, rest is free...

Some how i don't see that as RAI. But then MOI is IMHO poorly written, so we'll just have to agree to disagree...


Aliek

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 66
    • Email
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 08:39:47 PM »
Erudite 3 + Anima Mage 10 + Tenebrous Apostate 5 + Thrallherd 1 = 17th level manifestation
Added: Spell to Power ACF
Final Psionics - Access to: 9th level Powers, 8th level discipline powers, 8th level Arcane, 8th level Divine.

Binder 1 + Improved Binding (+2) + Anima Mage 10 + Tenebrous Apostate 5 = 17th level soul-binding
Final Soul-Binding: 8th level vestiges (highest possible), 3 free metapsionic uses/day,

Wasn't StP Erudite restricted to arcane only?What about the restriction on not learning powers if you have more levels in another class than on erudite? Or didn't that count PrCs?

What I think is the main beauty of this build is how SAD it feels. You use WIS for your monk abilities, ardent manifesting and ur-priest casting. Tough if I went Erudite I'd get effectively an extra feat by psicrystal affinity, that could go for academic priest. But yeah, monk would kind of suffer, as I don't have access to Dragon. So kung fu genius or carmendine monk is out, tough I think I wouldn't have the feats to burn anyway.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2011, 09:22:11 PM »
So if I play a totemist 5/warmind 4/soulmanifester 6 I would have 70 PP + ~30 from my wis score.
And have 6 soulmelds and 3 chakra bind from totemist levels- totem, crown, feet hands would be open.

I would start the day with opening my shoulder, arms and browns (3x 13 = 39 PP) and then open throat and waist (2x 17 = 34 PP)

Now I would have - with your intrepretation -  8 chakra binds? - I would even have to take shape soulmeld a few times to fill them out...

Feats: azure talent, education, rest is free...

Some how i don't see that as RAI. But then MOI is IMHO poorly written, so we'll just have to agree to disagree...
Considering you're blowing about 2/3 of your daily PP investment, still have something in the neighborhood of 12 Essentia to spread amongst your 8 chakra binds, and have a Meldshaper level of only 11 at level 15 (important if someone wants to start killing your Soulmelds), yes, I think that's just fine.

Shiki

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 853
  • Mindraped
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2011, 10:14:55 PM »
Wait what

I saw War Mind 4 and not War Mind 5? The 5th level ability is kind of the whole point of even getting levels in the class because the rest is just so meh.
"An ally of truth."

Soundtrack of the week:
Kagamine Rin - Antichlorobenzene (ft. Kagamine Ren)

Chilastra022

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: First psionic and incarnum character - Need advice
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2011, 10:43:40 PM »
Wasn't StP Erudite restricted to arcane only?What about the restriction on not learning powers if you have more levels in another class than on erudite? Or didn't that count PrCs?

What I think is the main beauty of this build is how SAD it feels. You use WIS for your monk abilities, ardent manifesting and ur-priest casting. Tough if I went Erudite I'd get effectively an extra feat by psicrystal affinity, that could go for academic priest. But yeah, monk would kind of suffer, as I don't have access to Dragon. So kung fu genius or carmendine monk is out, tough I think I wouldn't have the feats to burn anyway.


Generally the way erudites work is if you have equal to, or more levels in another manifesting class than you do Erudite levels, then you lose access to the erudite's class feature of learning new powers. In our group we generally dont label PrCs as "Arcane Casters or Manifesters or Divine Spell Casters" for those purposes unless the PrC itself grants the ability to cast spells or manifest powers such as fochlucan lyrist, ur-priest, chameleon, etc. If a PrC merely progresses spellcasting or manifesting but doesnt actually grant the ability to cast spells or manifest, then we see the PrC as a class that stylizes your already acquired ability to cast or manifest spells/powers and 'adds to'. Since they dont inherently have the ability to cast spells or manifest powers, you're required to be able to do that before even entering the PrC and then the PrC further progresses, alters, and stylizes it. So by this line of thought we interpret the erudite's limitation as only applying to base classes rather than PrCs.

As far as Spell to Power, yes its limited to arcane only, and at your highest manifestable level of power -1. But with thrallherd you gain a thrall that is 1 level lower than you. In this case, my thrall is a dual-9's arcane/divine spellcaster with Alternate Source Spell. What Alternate Source spell does is it allows you to cast an arcane spell as a divine spell, and a divine spell as an arcane spell. So you could have your thrall cast an arcane "Divine Power" spell, and since it is arcane, you can then convert it into a psionic power and commit it to your repertoire of powers. So not only could you learn all the arcane spells the thrall knows already, but also have him convert all his divine spells into arcane versions, and then you can convert the arcane versions to psionic versions.