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Author Topic: The Factotum and The Same Game Test: An Honest Look  (Read 17764 times)
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bkdubs123
Organ Grinder
*****
Posts: 2724


« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2011, 02:00:59 AM »

I'm not sure how you can disagree. The Factotum I built was garbage, I'm not denying that, it was part of the point, and it still walks away with 40~45% success in SGT 5 and roughly 50% success in SGT 10. I thought running with a 50% success in the SGT was considered "Rogue-level" by Frank's standards. The fact that my build totally sucked and that other builds within the same limited source pool can be a lot better is just icing.

And as I made clear, you declared a lot of things wins that I think aren't wins. Several of them could go either way, and if I were really curious, I would run probabilities or actually do the math on a well run 1/5/6 of SGT5 in order to find out whether the Factotum is 20% (what you actually showed) or 50%, because you made many highly questionable assumptions on those tests. (Including "I declare that my bag of tricks beats an encounter" which doesn't actually work for a number of reasons, which we could argue about if you want).

Yes, and after our discussion, that 45-50% rating I'm talking about is after omitting wins that you convinced me were actually losses or probable losses. The shitty Factotum I built still pulls 45-50%. With a Wand of Detect Magic, and with preparing specifically for each encounter like you suggested, the Factotum will do significantly better in both SGTs.

Quote
And then for the SGT10, you didn't even run it at all, and just declared a ton of wins with no basis, and assumed all the monsters are complete idiots, and made some more questionable assumptions (including declaring yourself the victor of another set of traps by virtue of owning a bag of tricks and taking several fucking days to make it down a hallway.

No, if you actually read instead of putting words into my mouth you'd notice that not only did I never say anything remotely close to that, but I in fact said, "well, I fucked those traps encounters up, I hope my bag of tricks is good enough." Which was meant to imply that I was accepting defeat. The 50% win rate in SGT 10 (revised after our discussion) goes like this 1) loss, 2) win, 3) loss, 4) loss, 5) win, 6) loss, 7) loss, 8) win, 9) win, 10) win. I haven't gone back to alter the full analysis yet because I'm lazy and don't care.

But forget it, you're obviously just going to be a piece of shit and ignore any evidence that the Factotum, while being a horribly designed, unfun, shitty, no good class, is perfectly capable of running through the Same Game Tests at a Rogue's level. Feel free to wank all you want about how a Rogue is infinitely better, I don't give a fuck.
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Unbeliever
King Kong
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Posts: 766



« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2011, 03:58:52 AM »

I think it's hard to infer that from one particular set of challenges with an idiosyncratic set of restrictions that a class is "unfun shitty etc". Nor do I even know how you'd "empirically verify" such a thing.
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Kaelik
Donkey Kong
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Posts: 704


« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2011, 09:44:08 AM »

Yes, and after our discussion, that 45-50% rating I'm talking about is after omitting wins that you convinced me were actually losses or probable losses. The shitty Factotum I built still pulls 45-50%. With a Wand of Detect Magic, and with preparing specifically for each encounter like you suggested, the Factotum will do significantly better in both SGTs.

Which is not the same as the things that I am convinced (technically I am not convinced, but I suspect) are losses. For example, the Manticore and Phase Spider, which you count as wins for the level 5 Factotum in order to get your 45-50%.

I count 5 definite losses for the SGT5 Factotum. That's not including the Phase Spider or Manticore or traps. That's not a 50% win rate unless you can convincingly demonstrate victory on all three of those fronts.

No, if you actually read instead of putting words into my mouth you'd notice that not only did I never say anything remotely close to that, but I in fact said, "well, I fucked those traps encounters up, I hope my bag of tricks is good enough." Which was meant to imply that I was accepting defeat. The 50% win rate in SGT 10 (revised after our discussion) goes like this 1) loss, 2) win, 3) loss, 4) loss, 5) win, 6) loss, 7) loss, 8) win, 9) win, 10) win. I haven't gone back to alter the full analysis yet because I'm lazy and don't care.

2) You claimed a win because you can outgrapple something that you have a lower grapple modifier, color me unimpressed.

5) Something with constant Mirror Image, free action damaging spores that do on average 59 damage if used twice, a 35% chance of fighting two, and the ability to kite you with teleport. I'd love to see the analysis that results in a victory there.

8) A lower grapple modifier, and if any one of them initiates a grapple, they will all pile on, and you will never escape. If they attack you at all before you polymorph, you lose. But through the magic of giving the Factotum infinite preparation and surprise rounds against everything, you declare this a win, instead of a likely draw.

9) Again, without any math on the actual amount of Str damage you take, you declare this a win. Even though if they do 10 Str damage, they win, and they automatically get a surprise round on you. I would want to do math, but this is by no means clear.

10) That's not part of the regular SGT, I have no idea what their build is, and I have no idea what tactics you propose, this is a completely meaningless entry that makes no actual sense.

Actual SGT 10: 0 wins, 4 losses, 6 need maths.

But forget it, you're obviously just going to be a piece of shit and ignore any evidence that the Factotum... is perfectly capable of running through the Same Game Tests at a Rogue's level.

Before you whine about people ignoring evidence, you have to actually present it. I have regularly pointed out the flaws I find in your analysis, and expect people to be able to judge for themselves that you didn't actually present evidence, and have been often wrong. You also declared 5 wins without any analysis at all on SGT 10, and the one you did analysis on is predicated on outgrappling something with a higher grapple modifier.

Feel free to wank all you want about how a Rogue is infinitely better, I don't give a fuck.

Thanks for the outlandish and explosive vitriol. I remember when I said that earlier. Oh wait, I guess I didn't.
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