Author Topic: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.  (Read 8913 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2011, 03:06:39 AM »
Why does the military never test supersoldier serum on sane individuals aside from Captain America?
Honestly solo... sane dudes don't just sign up to be experimented on by the government. So I imagine its mostly, prisioners, and super nutso nationalists.
Also, taking that type of "magic pill" that rewrites your body in such a dramatic way would likely effect your thought process as well.
.. sorry, I know you didn't need that... I just left the dc comics boards, what a bunch of assholes.  :nonono

\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2011, 03:15:49 AM »
You don't sign up for experiments in the military, you volunteer. Or are volunteered.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2011, 03:23:31 AM »
You don't sign up for experiments in the military, you volunteer. Or are volunteered.
As a military man... let me tell you.. You're volunteered. "Volun-told" we call it really, but thats not entirely true believe it or not.
 Test pilots, and Eod, and a lot of things of that nature you have to have already been in for quite a while before you can even apply, yeah you have to apply try out do an indocrination etc.
 If its something illegal or unethical thats being done its done historically in another country or to a closed group w/them not knowing. ymmv
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2011, 03:37:59 AM »
I would honestly advise against applying the paragon template. We don't want to transform him into superman (which paragon template does)...

Paragon doesn't even come close to transforming him into Superman... if we assume this guy is, let's say a Warblade 15, and we start him with a generous 36pt buy, with Str 16 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8, then we give him three level boosts to Str, that gives him final scores of Str 34 Dex 31 Con 31 Int 27 Wis 25 Cha 23, with a +4 weapon he'd have +56 to attack rolls, with a +4 adamantium breastplate he'd have AC 58 and DR 12/Epic and 60ft Speed, he'd have Fast Healing 20 and saves that don't really matter since he uses the Diamond Mind counters anyway. That's nowhere near Superman levels of anything, and in fact, seems to accurately portray Deathstroke's abilities. He's supposed to have the strength of 10 men, or something, and while Str 34 is a little high for that (max load 2800lbs) it's perfectly standard for high level D&D characters.

I guess we are doing this...

So I guess I threw out a name like Superman, so perhaps I was playing a little light in my description of what the paragon template does to an individual. I'm going to use this resource to approximate Deathstoke's powers...

Intelligence: Apparently he is very, very smart. But we have no actual scale for intelligence in D&D, so we have to use some solid guessing here. It is easy, through a tome of clear thought, for Deathstroke to achieve an intelligence score of above 20. Comparatively a Solar has an intelligence of 23 (even most great wyrm dragons don't get above this), so let us assume that even the low 20s is really smart. But this does seem to be a signature ability for Deathstroke, so there is a quick solution. The intellectual prodigy template from Dungeon Master's Guide 2 seems appropriate and easy in its scope!

Dexterity: He's pretty reflexive and can dodge projectiles. This honestly is pretty for the norm of a high level D&D characters. With Diamond Mind maneuvers handling reflexes and a high ac, we can simulate this without giving the guy a dexterity into the high 20s. If anything, a score of something akin to 20-22 might be just what we need.

Strength: "As strong as ten men," is a really vague statement with D&D. How do we even gauge what that means? If we go by carrying capacity and use a base 10 as an ordinary man it would look like a strength score of 27 is about right... But that is for carrying items, how accurate is that? The site continues to decribe him as being able to, "press lift at a minimum of 800 lbs," which gives us some hard numbers. The only problem is it doesn't describe his maximum... So lets assume it is a number past that but not crazy beyond it. A strength score of 25 can lift a maximum of 800 lbs so perhaps we take him up to around 26-27 for lifting? Let us perhaps use a comparative study using a giant (which I think is the 'strong monster' of D&D), specifically a Hill Giant. Hill Giant's are the weakest of their kind with a strength score of 25. Now, should Deathstroke being a strong as a Hill Giant? Honestly, I don't know??? I think a nice place to put him might be around 25-27...

Constitution: He's tough and can endure for a long time. Is he beyond the scope of all of humanity, it certainly doesn't say so... I think a constitution score of 20 is appropriate.

Wisdom: Nothing is listed regarding this, so we can actually treat him as a mortal. He has experience and is a battle hardy, but brash as well... He knows how to interpret a battlefield but that is more of his intelligence than any sort of wisdom. A humble score of 16 seems nice and simple.

Charisma: Nothing is once again listed so, much like wisdom, we can treat this at a more down-to-Earth score. He's a villain and looks cool, so he has some nice style. But he isn't based around charisma so a score like 16 fits well here...

So let us perhaps look at what I might do with a point-buy score of 32 (because that is the commonly accepted base...)
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 9, Cha 9

Applying the intellectual prodigy template we can throw a nice +2 bonus onto intelligence
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 9, Cha 9

Not particularly awesome, but then we get into that nice, ol' medical experiment (where WLB explodes!).
Using Silthilar Bones, Muscles & Tendons, we can upgrade the three physical scores by 2 points each.
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 17, Wis 9, Cha 9

Using a manual of bodily health (+4), manual of gainful exercise (+5), a manual of quickness of action (+4), a tome of clear thought (+5), a tome of leadership & influence (+5) and a tome of understanding (+5) we apply all of these bonuses over a very long time.
Str 23, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 14

And finally through applying level-appropriate bonuses from 4th, 8th and 12th level we can put those into strength.
Str 26, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 14

So we end up with a really strong, agile, tough and smart dude, not a complete beast in every subject. The problem with applying the Paragon template is that it hyper-inflates stats and to a degree ruins the template. Is Deathstroke beyond Captain America? That is the prime question one should ask, is he beyond the paragon of humanity stat-wise? Don't go around wasting the Paragon template (which is rightly deserved for much mightier people stat-wise). After all, why would Deathstroke have Damage Reduction 10/epic and Spell Resistance (at all...).

So, there is the problem with apply such a template. You disrespect the limits and boundaries of the character through an effortless application of a far too powerful template.


« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 03:49:52 AM by dark_samuari »

bkdubs123

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2724
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2011, 03:53:02 AM »
The intellectual prodigy template from Dungeon Master's Guide 2 seems appropriate and easy in its scope!

This is a great idea!

Quote
Dexterity: He's pretty reflexive and can dodge projectiles. This honestly is pretty for the norm of a high level D&D characters. With Diamond Mind maneuvers handling reflexes and a high ac, we can simulate this without giving the guy a dexterity into the high 20s. If anything, a score of something akin to 20-22 might be just what we need.

I partly disagree with this one, but it's difficult to judge as "reflexes" =/= Dexterity. I know he's able to fuck up The Flash (or he has in the past I don't know how powerful The Flash is not) which means that his reflexes have to be beyond the pale. His reaction time and alacrity are clearly faster than or at least on par with the speed of light. Pretty insane and seems a smidge higher than Dex 22 to me.

Quote
I think a nice place to put him might be around 25-27...

Like I said, I suppose that's fair. 34 is higher than "the strength of 10 men," so I can live with Str 26.

Quote
Constitution: He's tough and can endure for a long time. Is he beyond the scope of all of humanity, it certainly doesn't say so... I think a constitution score of 20 is appropriate.

It looks like you're right about this one, though of special note is his clear fast healing and immunity to poison and disease.

Quote
The problem with applying the Paragon template is that is hyper-inflates stats and to a degree ruins the template.

Paragon is just a quick and easy way to inflate his stats and give him an appropriate level of fast healing. The guy is able to sustain a mortal wound and shrug it off.

Quote
Is Deathstroke beyond Captain America? That is the prime question one should ask, is he beyond the paragon of humanity stat-wise?

In my opinion the answer is without a doubt yes. Captain America is slightly stronger, faster, tougher, etc than one man. Deathstroke is exponentially stronger, faster, and tougher than that, not to mention he's a lot smarter.

Quote
After all, why would Deathstroke have Damage Reduction 10/epic and Spell Resistance (at all...).

Fair enough.[/quote]

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2011, 04:14:37 AM »
The intellectual prodigy template from Dungeon Master's Guide 2 seems appropriate and easy in its scope!

This is a great idea!

Thanks, it really is a nice template that is really well suited for building comic characters (people like Tony Stark & Lex Luthor...).

Dexterity: He's pretty reflexive and can dodge projectiles. This honestly is pretty for the norm of a high level D&D characters. With Diamond Mind maneuvers handling reflexes and a high ac, we can simulate this without giving the guy a dexterity into the high 20s. If anything, a score of something akin to 20-22 might be just what we need.
I partly disagree with this one, but it's difficult to judge as "reflexes" =/= Dexterity. I know he's able to fuck up The Flash (or he has in the past I don't know how powerful The Flash is not) which means that his reflexes have to be beyond the pale. His reaction time and alacrity are clearly faster than or at least on par with the speed of light. Pretty insane and seems a smidge higher than Dex 22 to me.

The problem with building anything in contrast to the Flash is D&D isn't built to properly handle any speedster. The closest thing we have is Chuck E. Cheese which would absolutely kill a character like this (no matter how powerful we attempted to make him). The other factor we might consider is dialing back his abilities to compensate for his world. There are no bullets in D&D, so we'd say that Deathstroke should be able to dodge arrows & bolts. But AC and a nice selection of feats make that very possible without placing any higher reliance towards dexterity. But I see your point about his reflexes being very good (I just think we could focus on those without pumping his dexterity up to compensate for it).  

I think a nice place to put him might be around 25-27...
Like I said, I suppose that's fair. 34 is higher than "the strength of 10 men," so I can live with Str 26.

A strength of 34 is right under a Balor. I might be a traditionalist in this sense but very few comic-book heroes adapted into DnD should easily approach that sort of strength. For this exercise I have been using both a Solar and a Pit Fiend as my ceilings to a degree for relative power.

Constitution: He's tough and can endure for a long time. Is he beyond the scope of all of humanity, it certainly doesn't say so... I think a constitution score of 20 is appropriate.
It looks like you're right about this one, though of special note is his clear fast healing and immunity to poison and disease.

These can be achieved through grafts and Iron Heart Surge though, with much ease!

The problem with applying the Paragon template is that is hyper-inflates stats and to a degree ruins the template.
Paragon is just a quick and easy way to inflate his stats and give him an appropriate level of fast healing. The guy is able to sustain a mortal wound and shrug it off.

Now we get into the harsh area of definition, what is a mortal wound in D&D? It is going to be very different from a commoner to a tenth-level barbarian... Do we use fifty points of damage as it? Does Deathstroke have Wolverine levels of fast healing?

Is Deathstroke beyond Captain America? That is the prime question one should ask, is he beyond the paragon of humanity stat-wise?
In my opinion the answer is without a doubt yes. Captain America is slightly stronger, faster, tougher, etc than one man. Deathstroke is exponentially stronger, faster, and tougher than that, not to mention he's a lot smarter.

This is to a degree true, Deathstroke eclipses Captain America in a wide array of ways but we should use him (and Batman) as a solid foundation for comparative reasons. If we put characters like Captain America and Batman, the height of human potential, at 20-22 in each stat then we can begin to see where characters beyond humanity might fall. I mean Cap & Batman have both dodged bullets in their career...

I think the most important thing in adapting any character into D&D is to find their relative place within that universe. It is a lot like Neil Gaiman's Marvel 1602 comic book. You need to trim back and emphasis true aspects of their character as appropriate in D&D.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2011, 05:38:15 AM »
adamantium
What book is adamantium from?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2011, 07:30:37 PM »
adamantium
What book is adamantium from?
I'm starting to wonder who died and elected you forum troll?  I thought that was Soro's job.  :p

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2011, 12:30:39 AM »
adamantium
What book is adamantium from?
I'm starting to wonder who died and elected you forum troll?  I thought that was Soro's job.  :p

If that counts as trolling I'm all for Lycanthropmancer to take up the mantle.

Rejakor

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2011, 12:35:05 AM »
Tony Stark pulls PL 8 technology literally out of his ass.  That is some Reed Richards level crap right there.  Einstein had int 18.  I have no fucking idea what the fuck Tony Stark has in terms of int, but i'm guessing, Artificer levels.

Superman is a wizard.  He can totally throw people into the sun, but he seems to need a run up, he can never unleash right on the spot.  So he's a poorly built wizard.

Wolverine is some hodgepodge of the Feral template and classes that advance Rage.  He does a lot of damage.


What people never seem to get is that superheroes are really powerful according to their fluff.  They just get plot-sidelined in all the big 'Crossover Crisis!' plotlines written by inept hacks.  Also, any encounter between two superpowered people is going to go according to the plot, not according to their abilities.  However, let's take a look at what Deathstroke has actually done;

Tripped a man moving at the speed of light
Beaten up someone invincible in hand to hand combat
Out-thought the 'world's greatest detective'
Beaten up multiple superheroes at once


Well, we're looking at someone who can beat up wizards really easily and whose whole schtick is that he isn't a wizard himself he's just really smart.  Well.  That sounds like one of two things.  A Factotum abusing infinite inspiration points to get infinite actions, or a psion abusing either infinite actions or infinite re-dos.

Everything else posited can't actually do the things he has demonstrably done.

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2011, 10:41:53 PM »
Tony Stark pulls PL 8 technology literally out of his ass.  That is some Reed Richards level crap right there.  Einstein had int 18.  I have no fucking idea what the fuck Tony Stark has in terms of int, but i'm guessing, Artificer levels.

A pretty standard approach to someone like Tony Stark would be a Intellectual Prodigy Human Artificer 8/Renegade Mastermaker 2/Legacy Champion and putting a lot of emphasis on his armor. Plus Tony has the spell storing infusion, so he actually can build some in a cave with a box of scraps (you have to remember that he is using retain essence on all of those magic items his captors are bringing to him).

Superman is a wizard.  He can totally throw people into the sun, but he seems to need a run up, he can never unleash right on the spot.  So he's a poorly built wizard.

Superman tends to work really well as a manifester because of the increased versatility as well as the ability to pull of some TO-tricks (such as regenerating power points). Powers like Astral Seed, Genesis, and Hypercognition are only a few that help imitate Superman's amazing talents. I think he's probably be something akin to a Divine Rank 0 Aasimar (with the Paragon & Saint templates) Ardent 20 (with mantles re-customized & re-flavored to be Truth, Justice and the American Way). 

Wolverine is some hodgepodge of the Feral template and classes that advance Rage.  He does a lot of damage.

Nah, there is a pretty big problem with throwing the Feral template on top of someone like Wolverine. You see Logan is smart, in fact he is really smart... And the Feral template actually reduces intelligence. In addition we run into the debate over how Feral interacts with class levels instead of racial hit die. Either way a much simpler/easier build is something like a Quasilycanthrope (Wolverine) Shifter Wilderness Rogue 2/Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Spirit Lion and Wolf totem acfs) 2/Totemist 2/Warblade 4/Warshaper 4/Warblade 2.

What people never seem to get is that superheroes are really powerful according to their fluff.  They just get plot-sidelined in all the big 'Crossover Crisis!' plotlines written by inept hacks.  Also, any encounter between two superpowered people is going to go according to the plot, not according to their abilities.  However, let's take a look at what Deathstroke has actually done;

Tripped a man moving at the speed of light
Beaten up someone invincible in hand to hand combat
Out-thought the 'world's greatest detective'
Beaten up multiple superheroes at once

This is a rather poor method to use when approaching adapting any pop culture character (especially super-heroes). Instead of focusing on basic essences of the character you are placing emphasis on their feats, feats which we have no way to approximate in D&D. How does one trip a man moving at the speed of light? First we have to build a character who can move at the speed of light (Chuck E. Cheese) and than find a way to trip him (which might be impossible given how powerful Chuck is...). What constitutes someone being invincible? What does it mean to 'out-think' the "world's greatest detective?" These are fairly vague and provide us with nothing more than, "This guy sure is powerful!" So instead of looking at Deathstroke as a highly deadly character, a master tactician and very skilled assassin we instead of a powerful guy who has done some powerful stuff...

Well, we're looking at someone who can beat up wizards really easily and whose whole schtick is that he isn't a wizard himself he's just really smart.  Well.  That sounds like one of two things.  A Factotum abusing infinite inspiration points to get infinite actions, or a psion abusing either infinite actions or infinite re-dos.

So your solution is to build an absolutely TO-character? Wow, just wow... This character is a mortal being, but for some reason you seem inclined to give him abilities eclipsing divine beings!?! Just wow...

Everything else posited can't actually do the things he has demonstrably done.

This is a very flawed philosophy. It is intrinsically flawed because D&D as a system isn't developed to handle super-heroes. What you are describing should always be achieved through a system like GURPS or Mutant & Masterminds. You are trying to shoe-horn a concept into a system which inherently can not handle it. This process will inevitably disrespect the concept and system.

I'm going to quote an old post I made:

Quote
I think there is a problem when engaging any adaptation of a pop culture idea/concept/character into DnD 3.5, namely there are two approaches.

1. Using DnD 3.5 how would this character function? That is to say how would we exactly adapt this character into 3.5, with the focus being on the melding rules & facts together?

2. How would this character function in DnD 3.5? That is to say how would we develop this character within the realm of DnD 3.5? This takes a much more flavorful approach and is something akin to Neil Gaiman's 1609 series for Marvel.

With that said we should attempt to always use the second, it is the best method. It alleviates us of the straight-jacket that is being bound being a character's limitations within their own medium. It allows us to properly bbuild the character into a realistic (that is, dropping them into the renaissance-era of DnD) place in the realm of DnD. The system isn't built for CEOs and Photographers, we must acknowledge this or else we become bound to such unrealistic restrictions.

Hazren

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2011, 11:37:31 PM »
Wow, just wow... 


How would you try to translate the character concept into a D&D setting using the 3.5 rules?
"My solution way too often is to press the red button and see the world burn, which brings us back to the fiery pits of Hell..."
Tshern

Nachofan99

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2011, 11:47:16 PM »
Rejakor for the fucking win.  :clap

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2011, 12:17:30 AM »
Wow, just wow... 


How would you try to translate the character concept into a D&D setting using the 3.5 rules?

Do you want a character like Deathstroke in DnD? Or do you want Deathstroke made via DnD 3.5 rules?

Because the second is impossible (for all intents and purposes), the system simply can not do it.

Hazren

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2011, 03:38:06 AM »
I'd like to know your take on the concept of deathstroke using those rules. I know that he can't be "made" since there are no hard fast stats to translate.

How would you make someone who is a fighter/assassin and that uses his skills and intellect to get the job done instead of his brawn. Someone who is smarter, stranger and quicker than the average elite fighter. Someone that can regenerate/heal at a very fast rate.

Then how would you do that in a CO way?

I'm surprised I haven't seen anything beyond the classic TOB themed builds or the standard goto guys.

I was looking and it seems the dread commando class was made for this guy. Not a real winner of  PRC but it has full bab and then adds sudden strike and some other fluff.
"My solution way too often is to press the red button and see the world burn, which brings us back to the fiery pits of Hell..."
Tshern

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2011, 06:18:10 AM »
I'd like to know your take on the concept of deathstroke using those rules. I know that he can't be "made" since there are no hard fast stats to translate.

How would you make someone who is a fighter/assassin and that uses his skills and intellect to get the job done instead of his brawn. Someone who is smarter, stranger and quicker than the average elite fighter. Someone that can regenerate/heal at a very fast rate.

Then how would you do that in a CO way?

I'm surprised I haven't seen anything beyond the classic TOB themed builds or the standard goto guys.

I was looking and it seems the dread commando class was made for this guy. Not a real winner of  PRC but it has full bab and then adds sudden strike and some other fluff.

Well, I guess let us take a second look:

The ultimate chessmaster when it comes to fighting. He's 12 steps ahead of the others in anticipating their moves and actions.
He is augmented. He's stronger, smarter, faster than a normal human. He also has special healing that regenerates him (except his eye).
He isn't limited to just weapons, he can go hand to hand.

No magic use or psionics.

So let us examine his signature abilities:

Being a Chessmaster/Master Tactician; D&D really has no rules for these, they are more contingent on the player. White Raven is honestly the best way to simulate tactics (outside of using the rules from Heroes of Battle). Craft (trapmaking) is another option here, prepping a battlefield when needed.
Physically augmented; Tomes, manuals and grafts all elevate Deathstroke to a higher state of humanity.
Special Healing; The Troll-blooded feat in addition to the Fast Healing graft all provide this (although a weaker amount).
Expert Combatant; Being a high level martial character in D&D sort of takes care of this, with Knowledge Church Affiliation & Knowledge Devotion aiding where needed.

Honestly Deathstroke seems like a mage slayer, if porting him over to D&D. So to save some time I still think my previous build takes care of most of what would be needed from Deathstroke. A Human Rogue 2/Urban Ranger 2/Warblade 2/Fighter 1/Urban Ranger 3/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Warblade 3 would seem to cover the bases.

Most of the strength of Deathstroke seems to be in his planning and preparation. Picking the right maneuvers and UMD items is perhaps more important than anything else.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 06:52:57 AM by dark_samuari »

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2011, 06:47:36 AM »
Another variation to that type of build might be working in the Quasilycanthrope template to grant a quick Damage Reduction 10/Silver and the shapechanger subtype so that Deathstroke can pick up four levels of Warshaper. That will grant immunity to stunning & critical hits, +4 to strength & constitution, fast healing 2 and healing based on concentration checks (which ties in well with Diamond Mind maneuvers), in addition to the ability to grow natural weapons & increased reach (which don't exactly match Deathstroke's powers so you can disregard them if needed...).

But if you wanted to go really unique and make a truly crazy build there are some wacky options...

We start with a base of Quasi-lycanthrope, Intellectual Prodigy Human.

Then we try to capitalize on the prestige classes of Warshaper, Combat Trapsmith and Zhentarim Spy. The three would work together to grant increased physical prowess, the ability to set mini-traps anywhere at no cost as a standard action and the ability to hide from divination from everyone short of deities.   

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 07:04:47 AM by dark_samuari »

Rejakor

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2011, 06:31:06 PM »
Item 1:  Players are not as smart as Deathstroke is portrayed as being.

Item 2:  This means that they can't prepare in the same way Deathstroke does.

Item 3:  This means that Deathstroke as a DnD character needs some way to 'always be prepared' without actually requiring a Deathstroke-intellect-level player.

Item 4:  In a narrative game this would mean narrative control.  In DnD it means a specific ability of some kind.  Infinite actions do this.  Time re-do (psicrystal style) also do this.



You're using a correct argument (looking at what a character has done and creating a character that can do the same in DnD does not capture the basic flavour of the character necessarily - 'Superman can run at the speed of light - making a character that can run at the speed of light is not the same as making superman, and you can fluff Teleport as 'running somewhere really fast' if you want, anyway.') as 'proof' that your position is correct.. without actually linking the argument and your position.  Or even fully addressing my point.  You dodged it completely.

My point is that mechanically, the Deathstroke built under DnD rules should be able to accomplish the things Deathstroke in comics has done, or it is a failure.  It doesn't matter whether he has levels in 'Badass Ex-Soldier' or 'Wizard', as the names of the classes and class abilities aren't actually in the game.  It doesn't matter if his race is Human Ex-Experiment or Feral Earth Genasi... again, race is not a straitjacket, and in-game fluff does not care about what is written on your character sheet except for the actual numbers and actual rules interactions.  You can run around as a Earth Genasi calling yourself human and just being bigger and stronger than your friends, and I don't even care.  No-one cares.

I mean, yeah, technically a Quasilycanthrope Ranger Warblade Bard could punch people.  That's great.  It doesn't actually do Deathstroke's signature ability, which is out-planning and thinking his opponents in a small-scale combat way (Lex Luthor, on the other hand, outplans people on a large scale, at least til he makes his plot-mandated Dumb Move).  Psions can punch people too.  I actually won a monk arena with a monk/psion, once, and i'm horrible at optimization.  You're making the common, common mistake of thinking that the name of the class in any way affects the fluff of the class.

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2011, 10:34:40 PM »
Item 1:  Players are not as smart as Deathstroke is portrayed as being.

Item 2:  This means that they can't prepare in the same way Deathstroke does.

Item 3:  This means that Deathstroke as a DnD character needs some way to 'always be prepared' without actually requiring a Deathstroke-intellect-level player.

Item 4:  In a narrative game this would mean narrative control.  In DnD it means a specific ability of some kind.  Infinite actions do this.  Time re-do (psicrystal style) also do this.

There is a problem with this line of reasoning and it is that it puts the problem of a narrative talent on the players. This is the same issue of anyone playing a Wizard with an int of 20+ (or any other high mental stat), they don't know how to think in such mode. Way to go, you've identified an intrinsic problem of role-playing. Never mind the fact that Deathstroke's signature ability is entirely plot-based (as in we really have no way of expressing it in the rules), let us see how you have tried to take an ability absolutely governed by the writer (read: GM now) and give it to a player.

You want to give a character infinite actions. Naturally the first reaction is that this would transform them into a TO-Beast of a character. Instead of finding a balance with their skills, they really don't need to... You've given them so much power that other aspects of their character aren't really important. I mean, I understand the line of reasoning. Infinite actions/time re-do's fit in a sense except that that Deathstroke doesn't really have control over time... Now, going off what you have done, I think an easier & simpler method might be examining how to spam powers like Synchronicity, Hustle, Schism and others. These give off a sense of reactionary reflexes to a higher degree than any normal being can possess. But you know what else these do? They don't spring-board a character, while powerful, into TO territory. The only flaw in my approach is that Hazren doesn't want psionics or magic.    

You're using a correct argument (looking at what a character has done and creating a character that can do the same in DnD does not capture the basic flavour of the character necessarily - 'Superman can run at the speed of light - making a character that can run at the speed of light is not the same as making superman, and you can fluff Teleport as 'running somewhere really fast' if you want, anyway.') as 'proof' that your position is correct.. without actually linking the argument and your position.  Or even fully addressing my point.  You dodged it completely.

Perhaps I did but re-enlighten me, what was your point?

My point is that mechanically, the Deathstroke built under DnD rules should be able to accomplish the things Deathstroke in comics has done, or it is a failure.
 

Perhaps this is simply an issue of clashing philosophies regarding pop-culture adaptations within D&D? It seems, from my perspective, that you are trying to build an absolute imitation of the character while I am trying to morph the character into an equivalent model. Naturally these will clash, they serve different ends and are pretty opposite in their destinations.

I happen to think your philosophy is naturally flawed from the beginning because of absolute limitations in the character, medium & system.

* Deathstroke is a great marksman with guns.
* D&D doesn't use guns.
* Deathstroke not using guns isn't absolutely Deathstroke.
* Your adaptation is a Failure.

This is the type of straight-jacket you throw on yourself when limiting yourself to an absolute, mechanical adaptation. You will continually run into failure because the system is not designed for such adaptations. You can't shoe-horn this type of adaptation, it can not work.

I mean, yeah, technically a Quasilycanthrope Ranger Warblade Bard could punch people.  That's great.  It doesn't actually do Deathstroke's signature ability, which is out-planning and thinking his opponents in a small-scale combat way (Lex Luthor, on the other hand, outplans people on a large scale, at least til he makes his plot-mandated Dumb Move).  Psions can punch people too.  I actually won a monk arena with a monk/psion, once, and i'm horrible at optimization.
 

Once again I would cite that Hazren requested no psionics... And I have already addressed everything in my posts above.

You're making the common, common mistake of thinking that the name of the class in any way affects the fluff of the class.

You're making the common, common mistake of thinking that a super-hero can easily be shoe-horned into a system that intrinsically can not handle it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:39:12 PM by dark_samuari »

Nachofan99

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: How would you create this guy? A CO challenge.
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2011, 11:07:53 PM »
Straight up, all the way, Factotum 20 with a lot of Font of Inspiration does Deathstroke very well.  You get a TON of abilities from so many different classes.  You CAN do practically everything Deathstroke does, and you don't have Infinite Actions - just a crap ton.  A level 20 Factotum with Font of Inspiration a bunch of times is hardly something I would call TO.

And DnD does use guns.  There are tons of stats for guns in multiple sourcebooks including just the basic DMG.  So that's silly.