Author Topic: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?  (Read 10998 times)

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Midnight_v

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2011, 04:36:14 PM »
A rough explanation of how the naked warblade/crusader can keep up with the Balor's teleport+ranged spells will do.
Quote
Out of the curiosity, how's exactly the naked warblade/crusader defeating the flying and teleporting Balor with a wide arsenal of ranged nukes? Because if the Balor is charging at you in melee, then the fighter can also defeat it with just a masterwork weapon.
:( Must we always be at odds Oslecamo?
*sigh* I try not to take this personal but I figured by now people would realize I kinda know what I'm talking about.
Well off hand there are a couple of ways, and honestly its a couple ways fighters won't be able to do effectively really. Mostly by utilizing some of the higher level stances made available by virtue of having an actual intiaotor level.


  Now I'm just spitballing here but off the top of my head the balor has a +11 init iirc. So lets beat that shall we?
Take blooded +2 or any of other feats that give you an init boost.
 
 Inproved init is one of our bonus feats anyway that gives the warblade +6, init off the bat. . .
Take Dragon touched and Dragon aura. +4 more init at 20, Thats 10. and 3 feats (however if you have a dragon blooded race thats 1 feat.)
So on the topic of "Race" I'm going to say Human or any other race that gets a bonus feat or any race that gets wings but since I'm pretty avid about NOT play freakshows, I'll stick to human. 8 feats. Though You can get away with varying things by playing any number of non-winged - non-bonus feat getting races. I personally don't feel like going into it.

Thats +10 and we have a humble +1 from dex. (+12) so we now have just as much chance as going first as not.
The rest of your feats are going to be
Martial Study: Shadow x 2; and Martial stance x 2 shadow sometehing/Balance on the sky. Weapon Focus: Weapon of  your choice. Sanctify Martial strike. Thats 8
You can also go into flaws or whatever but I'm not gonna cause it over complicated my life right now and I want to devote a minimal amount of time to this as possible.
 Oh and the weapon is cold Iron as I"m a bad boy demon hunter (aka fuck yo' couch charlie murphy!(aka dr))

So like most D&D its rocket tag.
22 str +6 so To hit w/masterwork weapon +7 + 20 + 1 weapon focus ;+ 28 to hit. The balors ac is 35 and so we're looking at Rolling an 7 or better to hit. It's in my champions favor better much better than 50 percent so he's gonna hit consitently and I don't feel like doing any statistics to figure that exact number out right now, forgive me. Damage with a 2 hander is 9 +  lets say 4 from dice to be fair So 13.

First thing you do is teleport over, this is depentdant on the range of this guy but 100ft is plenty from most battlemaps and caves in D&D or dungeons for that matter. So you shadow swift action port 50 thne move 30 or spend your move for the other 50.
 You reserve the right to increase you reach by 5feat and if you have some reach weapon you can Bampf,Bampf, 5foot step with 15 foot reach. 120 feet. You're other stance is assassins stance but its no needed so we'll obviate that for now and say your other stance is the +10 to jump.

Anyway so like any other martial adept you're going to teleport 100 feat. You have a reach weapon, and your 2 stances you have up are:


So you're in. . . You're first strike is of course White raven stun. adding 6d6 +13 for str. + 1 for the 1d4 bonus of sanctify. +2d6 for assassins stance well say 6 (though normally we calculate in D&D a d6 as 3.5)
So you're first attack is. . . 41 + 3 from int and he's lost 44 hp points of damage and he's stunned.
290 - 44 = 246
Round 2:
Swooping Dragon strike:
10d6 points of damage + a stun with a minimal dc of 40(24 from ranks 6 from str, 10 from the stance and the jumps count as running a balor is 8ft tall) before rolling by the way. So the balor is stunned again this time and also flat footed for the attack taking the standard 20 + 10d6 or 35 damage So 45 more points +3 from int
246 - 48 = 198 hp. at this point activate White Raven Tactics on yourself.
initiate:
On second thought, for ease of giving this any more thought drop balance on the sky, take sudden recovery.
Activate Strike of Perfect Clarity 100+14.

Round 3: Swift action sudden recovery, recovering Strike of Perfect Clarity. +100 damge.
 Win.
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oslecamo

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2011, 05:46:00 PM »
Inproved init is one of our bonus feats anyway that gives the warblade +6, init off the bat. . .
Take Dragon touched and Dragon aura. +4 more init at 20, Thats 10. and 3 feats (however if you have a dragon blooded race thats 1 feat.)
So on the topic of "Race" I'm going to say Human or any other race that gets a bonus feat or any race that gets wings but since I'm pretty avid about NOT play freakshows, I'll stick to human. 8 feats. Though You can get away with varying things by playing any number of non-winged - non-bonus feat getting races. I personally don't feel like going into it.

Thats +10 and we have a humble +1 from dex. (+12) so we now have just as much chance as going first as not.
The rest of your feats are going to be
Martial Study: Shadow x 2; and Martial stance x 2 shadow sometehing/Balance on the sky. Weapon Focus: Weapon of  your choice. Sanctify Martial strike. Thats 8
You can also go into flaws or whatever but I'm not gonna cause it over complicated my life right now and I want to devote a minimal amount of time to this as possible.
 Oh and the weapon is cold Iron as I"m a bad boy demon hunter (aka fuck yo' couch charlie murphy!(aka dr))
Very well, let's see how he fares.

So like most D&D its rocket tag.

22 str +6 so To hit w/masterwork weapon +7 + 20 + 1 weapon focus ;+ 28 to hit. The balors ac is 35 and so we're looking at Rolling an 7 or better to hit. It's in my champions favor better much better than 50 percent so he's gonna hit consitently and I don't feel like doing any statistics to figure that exact number out right now, forgive me.
The Balor has Unholy aura SLA at will that grants it an extra +4 Deflection bonus to AC. Both combat tactics on the MM and Fiendish Codex support the Balor runs around with its Unholy aura active all the time (your warblade also seems to run around with his stances on all the time).

Damage with a 2 hander is 9 +  lets say 4 from dice to be fair So 13.
Balance in the sky demands you to keep an hand free all the time for it to work.

First thing you do is teleport over, this is depentdant on the range of this guy but 100ft is plenty from most battlemaps and caves in D&D or dungeons for that matter. So you shadow swift action port 50 thne move 30 or spend your move for the other 50.
I would strongly disagree here. At high levels (specially at 20th level) much bigger ranges are not that uncommon, but ok, let's assume you are whitin all those teleports range.

You reserve the right to increase you reach by 5feat and if you have some reach weapon you can Bampf,Bampf, 5foot step with 15 foot reach. 120 feet. You're other stance is assassins stance but its no needed so we'll obviate that for now and say your other stance is the +10 to jump.
You reserve yourself the right to increase your reach by 5 feet out of nowhere? Sorry but I'm not buying that. Increasing reach is pretty hard in D&D. The warblade does have a stance for that, but then you'll have to drop one of the other stances. But I'll let it slide since it isn't much relevant to this case.

Anyway so like any other martial adept you're going to teleport 100 feat. You have a reach weapon, and your 2 stances you have up are:
Hmm, what? I'll assume balance in the sky (so you don't drop) and assassin's stance.
 
So you're in. . . You're first strike is of course White raven stun. adding 6d6 +13 for str. + 1 for the 1d4 bonus of sanctify. +2d6 for assassins stance well say 6 (though normally we calculate in D&D a d6 as 3.5)
So you're first attack is. . . 41 + 3 from int and he's lost 44 hp points of damage and he's stunned.
290 - 44 = 246
If the warblade hits, it has to make a DC 26 Fort save or take 1d6 Str damage from Unholy aura. Also where you're geting +13 str? You later mention you have a +6 Str bonus.

Round 2:
Swooping Dragon strike:
10d6 points of damage + a stun with a minimal dc of 40(24 from ranks 6 from str, 10 from the stance and the jumps count as running a balor is 8ft tall) before rolling by the way. So the balor is stunned again this time and also flat footed for the attack taking the standard 20 + 10d6 or 35 damage So 45 more points +3 from int

Another DC 26 Fort save or another 1d6 Str damage from unholy aura. Also Balors are 12 feet tall, it says right here, but with the jumping stance you still make the DC easily. But it costed you your swift action to change into it.

246 - 48 = 198 hp. at this point activate White Raven Tactics on yourself.
initiate:
How? You just spent your swift action changing to the jumping stance. In the first round the warblade was in "air walk stance"+assassin's stance and you couldn't change because you spent the swift action teleporting.

On second thought, for ease of giving this any more thought drop balance on the sky, take sudden recovery.
Activate Strike of Perfect Clarity 100+14.
You can't do that. Whitout a way of staying on the air, you'll just drop to the ground after teleporting. You lost any suprise effect you had, the Balor teleports for a moment, then returns with a summoned pal.

Round 3 you deal 100-ish more damage (and another Fort against Str damage, since the warblade's fort save will be around +14 he probably lost around 6-9 Str by now). The Balor is still standing, is now not stunned, retreats for a moment with teleport, summons a friend, and it kills the warblade from a safe distance.

So your Warblade puts on a good show, but between balance in the sky droping your damage potential, not enough swift actions for stance swaping and boosting, plus unholy aura steadily droping the strenght score it needs to keep hitting reliably, he still falls short.

That's assuming the battle starts at 100 feet distance or closer. Any bigger and the warblade just can't reach fast enough.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2011, 07:12:44 PM »
There is more to add, I think.
Swift shadow teleport (shadow blink I think) as well as balance on the sky stance are shadow maneuvers for which the warblade's initiator levels count only half. So the warblade cannot even take those maneuvers (he'd need to be of higher initiator level).

Also, white raven tactics only applies to allies, not to yourself. The PHB suggests that allies should most of the times also include yourself, but in the PHB the many cases where allies are mentioned, there is also explicit mention that yourself are also affected by the spell or ability.

No, I do not think this warblade is going to have a good chance taking on a balor. He's going to need magic items like the fighter. ;)

- Giacomo

weenog

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2011, 07:17:17 PM »
Swift shadow teleport (shadow blink I think) as well as balance on the sky stance are shadow maneuvers for which the warblade's initiator levels count only half. So the warblade cannot even take those maneuvers (he'd need to be of higher initiator level).

Where'd you come up with this idea?  He's picking those maneuvers up as warblade maneuvers via feat.  He's not taking them as swordsage maneuvers.
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Rejakor

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2011, 08:58:16 PM »
Boomerang Daze + Quickdraw + Darkstalker + pimped Hide + 200' distance + Power Throw = Dead Balor.

Grapple Monster Warblade + Shadow Blink/stride + the can't speak part of Pinning + SLA's need verbal components = Dead Balor.  (actually i'm uncertain on this.. just remember not being able to cast as a warlock in a silence effect.. hm.. cbf looking it up... Mage Slayer + Enough Damage = same thing anyway)

Witch Slayer +Momentary Disjunction + Ubercharger = Dead Balor.

Volley Archer + right sort of arrows + power shot + readied action to disrupt + greater manyshot = Dead Balor.



There's more.  You can do it.  It's messy, but you can.  But those are all optimized builds against unoptimized MM1 Balor.  Which indicates that the class is deeply underperforming it's CR.

Unbeliever

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2011, 01:40:48 AM »
There's more.  You can do it.  It's messy, but you can.  But those are all optimized builds against unoptimized MM1 Balor.  Which indicates that the class is deeply underperforming it's CR.
Though Balor has the [awesome] subtype doesn't it?  So, it's probably a little tough for its CR.

Sir Giacomo

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2011, 08:24:23 AM »
Swift shadow teleport (shadow blink I think) as well as balance on the sky stance are shadow maneuvers for which the warblade's initiator levels count only half. So the warblade cannot even take those maneuvers (he'd need to be of higher initiator level).

Where'd you come up with this idea?  He's picking those maneuvers up as warblade maneuvers via feat.  He's not taking them as swordsage maneuvers.

Ah, my bad. I confounded it with the initiator level multiclass rules.

- Giacomo

Midnight_v

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2011, 11:39:10 AM »
Thanks Rejkor but we wanted to do it without ranged attacks but yea boomerang daze ftw.

I realized last night at work I was trying to be 2 cute with that balance on the sky bit.

I honsestly didn't want to charge, but just to prove the point: Alignment (True Neutral)
Power Attack
Imp. Bullrush
Shocktrooper
Leap attack
Dragon Touched
Dragon Aura
Martial study: Shadow Blink
Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt
Str: 22 Dex 16 no bonus else where.
Damage from Str and 2hander = 9 + 4 from the weapon itself. (Its likely a guisarme, but any 2d4 weapon will do) =13
to hit: Bab 20/+6 str/+1 master work = 27
The Stances Active would be: Leaping Dragon, and (either press the advantage, or absolute steel)
Round 1: Shadow Stride, Shadow Jaunt, White Raven Hammer Damage 13 base + (3.5 x 6) -15dr =19 dmg
Round 2: Swooping Dragon Strike: 13 + (3.5x10) = 48 -15Dr= 33 dmg.
Movement: You have an option here you can, take a 10 foot step or you can use your swift action to jump, or you can just move away honestly. . . depending on exactly the circumstance you're in. (If you move away and you feel the need you can at this point change stances)
Round 3: Pouncing Charge w/Leap attack and Shock trooper. Power Attacking for full. 1:4 ratio. +80 damage per successful attack. The balor is stunned, so its ac is down by 2. You're charging so your attacks are at +2.
The warblades to hit is 31/26/21/16 lets say only 2 hit. 2(13+80)-30dr(15dr twice) damage = 156.
So the balor has taken 208dmg.
BUT WAIT! We still have a swift action left!
2 ways:
Method 1:
Raging Mongoose: 2 extra attacks at 93dmage and highest bab. So 186 - 30 dr = 156
Balor has taken 364 Dmg
Method 2
use that swfit action to cast: White Raven Tactics on self; Some people frown upon this but, for posterity...
White Raven tactics. Gives you your whole turn including a swift action.
You can use any number of manuvers here, Strike of perfect clarity, for instance dealing 178 points
Then activate Raging mongose for another 156
Balor has taken: 520
If dimond nightmare blade its somthing around 513.
Warblade wins!: Fatality
All in his pajamas.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 11:40:57 AM by Midnight_v »
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Bauglir

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2011, 06:16:04 PM »
Here's the problem. Round 2: Balor summons a second Balor. You're now fucked, because the sidekick will use Blasphemy every round. I don't see a plan to deal with this, unless a draconic aura makes you immune to dazing (I don't think there's one that does that, though). White Raven Hammer did prevent this from happening in Round 1, however.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

oslecamo

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2011, 06:24:42 PM »
Whitout Balance in the sky, the warblade can't pull any of that because the Balor is somewhere in the air, and teleport by itself doesn't allow you to stay up there for more than 1 attack at best. Then you fall and can't recharge maneuvers faster than the balor summons a friend and blasphemy-locks you.

Also... 10 feet step? Where are you pulling that one from? You're sure the warblade isn't just dreaming all of this since he's in pijamas and everything?

Boomerang daze is, ironically, a trick the fighter itself can pull out easily.

Midnight_v

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2011, 11:51:02 PM »
Here's the problem. Round 2: Balor summons a second Balor. You're now fucked, because the sidekick will use Blasphemy every round. I don't see a plan to deal with this, unless a draconic aura makes you immune to dazing (I don't think there's one that does that, though). White Raven Hammer did prevent this from happening in Round 1, however.
He can't. Swooping Dragon strike stuns: with a save dc = to the jump check. The jump check is going to be a minimum of 40 + whatever is rolled for the actual check. The balors fort save is a 22.

 So ... yeah it can't reasonable make that save with any reliability and thus round 2 he's stunned, also.
When round 3 comes he's still stunned till just after the warblades turn, at which point he's dead.

Quote
Whitout Balance in the sky, the warblade can't pull any of that because the Balor is somewhere in the air, and teleport by itself doesn't allow you to stay up there for more than 1 attack at best.

Nope. I'm not willing to give the balor "Standing in the air always as an attribute. That alone gives the balor circumstancial advantage. So no. If the balor is flying then yeah it gets a bit more difficult and you can still do that but it'll require playing a race with wings or something.
However, most published modules don't assume the balor fly's in through the roof or whatever. So no the scenario you want to paint, you don't get to paint. Though sure 50/50 Balor vs Solo Naked Warblade is still pretty damn good.

Quote
Also... 10 feet step? Where are you pulling that one from? You're sure the warblade isn't just dreaming all of this since he's in pijamas and everything?
  All I'm sure of is your ignorance, Oslecamo.  :nonono
So I'll school you up a bit.
 :teach  Press the advantage:  Stance/White raven school/Level:5 allows a second 5ft step each round. I simplified it by saying 10ft step, but you'd have to have some working knowledge of the Manuever system to puzzle that out I suppose, which you obviously kinda don't. No biggie, now you know (plus you might have forgotten like I did with unholy aura)
  Also it doesn't fucking matter, because round 2 you can just ... you know take a MOVE action, as the balor is still stunned. 
Quote
Boomerang daze is, ironically, a trick the fighter itself can pull out easily.
Well no shit?  :banghead
We all knew that from the start, we weren't talking about ranged fighting is all. We were discussing melee.
It's only you who's dreaming that the balor can't be beat, or some shit idea like that.
.... and with that I think I've proven my point.

@ Endairre:

[spoiler]I hope you got something about this from the exhange there. Non-casters to hold thier own vs Cr= creatures, they need a few things.
Stat Bonuses.
Though that can be folded into reasonable stat bonues increases. The game might benifit, and really make every one feel better if we cut back the insane magic items for boosting stats, if we do something like, "at every for levels you gain X bonus to each stat: Level 4 +1, Level 8 +2, Level 12 +3; Level 16+4; Level 20 + 5. cumulative.
or something like that, thats just off the cuff but its sooo much better than having to go through Magic Mart for stat increases and everyone ending up at the same place anyway.
This makes people NOT have to jump through hoops(or be a spell caster) to get a decent initiative
Movement Rates/Modes
And/or something the ability to DO something about them.
 The fact that all a monster has to do is fly up, and use spammable spell is a hamper in the game.
A creture damaged while flying should have to make a concentration check/reflex save, or SOMETHING
to keep flying. "Wing Clip" should be a regular combate manuever, there of course would be things immune to that (Beholders come to mind), but things "flying magically" need to be defined as such.
Rocket Tag.
I remember Sunic Flames talking bout IP'ing your pc's iteration proof I think it meant, so either "A" mundanes need to have some way of saying "Um, no, your spells don't work on me." or B: Have a solid way to rocket tag back.
Charging is 1 such way but look at the way its frowned upon by many, and its not even all that great a trick.
  On some of the other boards people think using shocktrooper + leap attack is broke, but honestly it gets used because at everyone else is using binary save or lose type effects as well. OR beating you at melee. HARD.
Though lets look at the above for example: If the warblade ever lets the balor have a turn. He dies.
You'll find that its a very repeatable occurance, and it doesn't strictly occur at high level.
  So either they need to be allowed to PLAY rocket Tag, or be immune to rocket tag, and maybe its a combination of both.
Also... someone Unbeliever I think said that reliance on magic items isn't a critique on the system but it really kinda is. The amount of magic swag required for a character to work, can be varied, but having classes that are more or less totally reliant on magic items to play is a bit of a downer. Especially, with the WAY in which some of them are dependant, to the point where the Monk is completely made viable through proper use of umd as illustrated by giacomo. Frankly, despite all the flack the dude gets, what he suggested in many ways kinda works, it's just WBL optimization, but that type of shit makes almost everyone unhappy. I don't mind having Azathoth's sword of Pwnage, but I totally don't want it to be the only reason I'm pwning.
 [/spoiler]






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Bauglir

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2011, 12:03:46 AM »
Somehow I missed the stunning line, forget my objection. You're only fucked if you lose initiative, which you can probably optimize your way around anyway.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

Midnight_v

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2011, 12:11:13 AM »
Somehow I missed the stunning line, forget my objection. You're only fucked if you lose initiative, which you can probably optimize your way around anyway.
  Don't worry about Bauglir we all miss stuff in those giant blocks of texts, sides you're actually one of the people on here whose opinion I respect, so you get a lot of error room so to speak.
  I tried to optimize around it yeah, thats what the Dragon touched/draconic aura crap was about. Getting another, +4 to initiative. Thing is this is all naked and by his own power, IN melee. Really the thing is that it sucks that it comes down to freaking charging th monster to death, and dumpster diving through books.
  So I guess on thing I missed @Endarire was appropriate damage., but I guess thats kinda implied in the rocket tag line. All that, and I still think the Frank and K classes do this more succinctly, I end up at the appropriate optimization level and I don't have to spend an hour or more doing it, and I kinda don't have to rely on charging. Meh.
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Unbeliever

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2011, 12:14:13 AM »
I did make a comment re:  magic items.  And, I stand by it in the following way.  

First, the game designers explicitly assumed you'd have magic items, and of a roughly X amount.  So, if the game doesn't work without them, that's not really on them.  It might be a better game if it did, but that wasn't the game they were designing.  

Second, I'd draw the distinction between a character build that relies on a few handy magic items for various circumstances:  a Warblade with a cloak that lets him fly or a potion or a magic sword for whatever.  And, a character that is completely reliant and has no real abilities outside of their equipment list.  The latter example doesn't really depend on the build at all it is, as Midnight has noted, WBL optimization.  Although WBL is just one of many character resources, just like feats.

Question:  why does the Warblade get killed if the Balor gets an action?  He can Diamond Mind any save he has to make, so he won't be SoD'ed right out of the gate.  Can a Balor really do that much damage to kill a 20th level Warblade (with 20d12+ hp) in a single round, especially with counters?  

Bauglir

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2011, 01:01:02 AM »
The reason is that as soon as the Balor gets a standard action, it summons a second Balor. The second Balor will use Blasphemy every round, dazing the Warblade with no save, while the first gets on with the murder. Pretty standard tactics for the bastards, but maybe more a testament to how stupid the Word of X spells are, especially in an enemy's high-HD hands.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

bhu

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2011, 04:09:59 AM »
I've heard lamentations on how Fighters just can't do this.  Maybe martial adepts can, but I'm looking for more specifics.  Is it damage?  Initiative?  HP?  Otherwise?

I plug Hood a lot.  Still, if Battle Jump triggers, she tends to one-shot or one-round anything.

Offer the BBEG sex, hope they accept, and hope you can survive the experience.  And that your good enough that the bad guy wants to keep you around.  Wait...does that makes you a minion?  Crap...

oslecamo

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2011, 11:14:26 AM »
Quote
Whitout Balance in the sky, the warblade can't pull any of that because the Balor is somewhere in the air, and teleport by itself doesn't allow you to stay up there for more than 1 attack at best.

Nope. I'm not willing to give the balor "Standing in the air always as an attribute. That alone gives the balor circumstancial advantage. So no. If the balor is flying then yeah it gets a bit more difficult and you can still do that but it'll require playing a race with wings or something.
However, most published modules don't assume the balor fly's in through the roof or whatever. So no the scenario you want to paint, you don't get to paint. Though sure 50/50 Balor vs Solo Naked Warblade is still pretty damn good.
It's 99/1 Balor vs solo melee naked warblade witout balance in the sky. That's horrible.

Because, really, give me one good reason why the Balor will want to stay on the ground when it has a permanent natural fly speed and it can spot/listen the warblade coming from a lot more than 100 feet away. Staying on the ground when you can fly is a massive tactical blunder and is just makes you vulnerable to a lot more enemy tactics.

And of course if the Balor

No biggie, now you know (plus you might have forgotten like I did with unholy aura)
Yeah, because you yourself didn't just start making stuff up with Balance in the sky and two handed weapons and claiming WRT is a free action? You still have a long way to go before you can call yourself anything resembling an optimizer.  :eh

.... and with that I think I've proven my point.
You've proven that you can beat a Balor that's dumb enough to stay on the ground when it notices an enemy aproaching. Well, guess what, the regular fighter can also do that just fine. Uber chargers are easy to pull out. And if you pick a race with wings for the warblade, so can the fighter.

Rejakor

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2011, 01:41:33 PM »
Darkstalker + Hide = Balor notices what?

You can build fighters to take out Balors reliably, but you have to abuse insanely powerful feats like Battle Jump and Boomerang Daze.  Warblade is slightly better, it can stand up to even enemies with spell-likes or flight, that are CR-2 compared to it.  But with warblade to have a 50/50 against shit like Balors you end up abusing the same feats, or abusing the maneuvers like Swooping Dragon AutoStun or White Raven Take Another Turn.

Spellcasters can use spells to get mobility, damage, layered defenses, minions, immunities, and non-damage kill effects.  You have to give a fighter type level appropriate 4/6 of those if they're gonna be able to keep up with the CR system. 

ToB gives a bit, but not as much as it should bar the borked maneuvers.  To be honest i'd hand all 6 to the fighter.  Mobility in terms of 'leap off things like Beowulf to get around', damage in terms of 'automatic add a stat to damage, extra damage based on type of weapon used, level based damage, properly scaling PA', layered defenses in terms of ToB style counters (like Tome foil, but less blatant, for the whingers... look into Wings of Cover... it's called 'Foil but better'.. covers things outside 30') and mirror image style 'get out of jail free' cards as well as traditional DR and AC that come from the class not from items, minions in the form of free non-leadership Leadership with thrallherd like stuff from your sheer Fame as you level up... dudes just show up hoping to join you.. and then they can form part of the layered defense as a 'Look Out, Sir!' kind of thing, immunities as just straight up 'you are so tough you ignore dazing' etc etc, and non damage kill effects from special attacks 'stunning blow' 'nauseating below the belt kick' etc that you get as you level and aren't wide-radius but are easy to combo with each other and normal attacks.

b100d_arrowz

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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2011, 03:27:17 PM »
Combat tactics are a hell of a drug. Sunder if you don't care about loot  :lol. But since we all like that  0:) there are a bevy of ways to boost up your grapple and trip scores. Now you may not be able to trip a dragon more then once every 20 tries or so, but its a start. In a campaign I ran, the three most effective characters were the rogue/assassin who literally did nothing other then study and attack, the barbarian grappler (using funky dragon barbarian unarmed class), and then the monk  ???. Yeah the party was pretty weak  :blush. But those three all used various combat maneuvers, and the handy darkstalker feat  :devil to outmaneuver the big baddies, put them in bad positions, and then exploit it.


Oh yeah, and a non masterwork, non magical silver dagger helps (long story)
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Re: What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2011, 06:39:11 PM »
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Yeah, because you yourself didn't just start making stuff up with Balance in the sky and two handed weapons and claiming WRT is a free action?
  :lol
I'm not sure if you're a liar, or just an idiot.
I'm leaning toward a little of both, Oslecamo.
Buuut... just to determine which... What the fuck are you talking about?

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Round 2:
Swooping Dragon strike:
10d6 points of damage + a stun with a minimal dc of 40(24 from ranks 6 from str, 10 from the stance and the jumps count as running a balor is 8ft tall) before rolling by the way. So the balor is stunned again this time and also flat footed for the attack taking the standard 20 + 10d6 or 35 damage So 45 more points +3 from int
246 - 48 = 198 hp. at this point activate White Raven Tactics on yourself.
initiate:
On second thought, for ease of giving this any more thought drop balance on the sky, take sudden recovery.
Activate Strike of Perfect Clarity 100+14.   
Are you talking about the point at which I said for ease of giving this any more thought, drop balance on the sky, take sudden recovery?
 You realize those are changes to the BUILD not to the round? You don't do you? It pretty much the only way you could have gotten that interpretation, if you were fucking stupid enough to fail to realize that "Sudden Recovery" is a feat" and that "Balance on the sky" is attained via feat. So... are you a liar, or a Moron? Do tell. Cause obviously I didn't make up shit. Even then, I was just spit balling. . .
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Because, really, give me one good reason why the Balor will want to stay on the ground when it has a permanent natural fly speed and it can spot/listen the warblade coming from a lot more than 100 feet away.
Okay, Uhm because its "INSIDE!" a dungeon, this is fucking dungeons and dragons.
Now a challenge for you.
 Now find me 1 published adventured where there's a fucking Balor flying, and not sitting on a throne or mid-fucking torture or some shit. You can look throught dungeon, pathfinder, or any published D&D module for it. Feel Free. Just 1. I'll then concede that argument.
Though your argument is bullshit. . . As a Dm I know that I can craft scenario + team monster powers, where the pc's CAN'T win. So I'm not going to bring that into a theortical discussion where you want to give team monster situational advantage. Piss poor on your behalf. Honestly, though this isn't about e-peening with you as much as you seem to want to engage in that.
Its more about what the op asked.
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What would non-casters need to hold their own vs. equal CR creatures?

Which you've done fuck all to answer, yourself.
I apologize to everyone else who watched the thread ass-plode as I argue with this idiot. Forgive me.
He seems to be arguing something different from me anyway.


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Well, guess what, the regular fighter can also do that just fine. Uber chargers are easy to pull out. And if you pick a race with wings for the warblade, so can the fighter.
Never said he couldn't. . .
therefore "So can the fighter" seems to be a moot point, really.
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