Author Topic: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits  (Read 3750 times)

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altpersona

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proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« on: September 20, 2011, 03:43:42 PM »
Suppose you did away w/ Sneak attack dice and replaced the base ability with threatening critical.

at first; i thought add 1 multiplier per SA dice gain, but a 15 multiplier is probably excessive :lmao

So instead, convert a SA die gain into a per encounter auto threat. making a hit into a critical hit.

ergo, if you have 10 SA dices to roll on your qualified attacks, you instead have up to 10 rolls that auto crit if hit.

10d6 all day if qualified or 10 xX hits per encounter?

the original thought of course had been something like any normal crit would end up CO'd to x20+ multiplier... you unremarkable dagger just did 80 points damage... before modifiers.

so whatcha think?
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SneeR

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 05:21:36 PM »
That is definitely like some systems I have seen where you just multiply all of your damage by two on a sneak attack, and I think it is a very interesting system...

But, of course, you are going to see rogues wielding some weird, not-very-roguish weapons a lot, like picks, scythes, punching daggers, and greataxes.

The downfall of the idea is that a scythe dealing 8d4 damage 10 times per battle is a humungous nerf from a dagger dealing 1d4+10d6 all day long with a good enough hide check. Also, its not liike a 20th level battle lasts long enough to take 10 actions, even full-attacking every round.

The only possible saving grace would be if the rogue could do this auto-crit thing whenever, without any of the conditional dependents of sneak attack (no DEX to AC, namely).

Mixing rogues with criticals is an unfortunate fallacy in my eyes. In D&D, rogues use weapons only to carry their sneak attacks, since SA doesn't multiply on a crit. If you inextricably bind rogues to criticals, you will always have rogues wielding non-rogue weapons. No rogue would ever use a dagger when a katar would be "better." There is little finesse that has been long associated with the thief class in swinging around a heavy pick, especially when you aren't proficient with it!
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SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

altpersona

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 07:07:37 PM »
an additional consideration i guess is; that its not only rogues that sneak attack.

two handed megazord wielding blackgaurds also SA, in addition to anyone who has a floating feat or any of the hundred other ways gain the feature.

also, im still not sure what a rogue is anymore; kinda like i dont know what a fighter is...

3.5 has decimated their base existence, turned them into dips. i guess more base classes are only dips anyway..

i dont really envision some halfling rogue 20 using this alternate rule with a pic..

but, back to some of your points,

full bab w/ 10 SA uses in a encounter, win init, make your full attack w/ wtf and your already nearly used up your 10 before anyone else moves. not accounting for Blood in the Water (i think thats the one)...
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SneeR

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 08:19:06 PM »
full bab w/ 10 SA uses in a encounter, win init, make your full attack w/ wtf and your already nearly used up your 10 before anyone else moves. not accounting for Blood in the Water (i think thats the one)...

I think that you're overlooking the fact that if you could somehow get full base attack bonus, then go first at 20th level with +10d6 sneak attack, all of your attacks get the sneak attack because the opponent is flat-footed. I think that, unless you had all of the best critical-based enchantments on your weapon, nothing matches up to +50d6 damage...

Which brings up my main point: This ability makes the sneak attackers totally equipment-dependent. They need scythes with critical-based enchantments in order to pack their full punch. Normally, they just need to go first.
The answer to everything:
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SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

altpersona

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 09:10:25 PM »
i didnt overlook 'all of your attacks' at all, its what i was thinking.

50d6 ~= 150 dmg, not overly great by CO standards, its not bad but not special.

lets not overlook the SA caster w/ maximized damage.


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SneeR

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 10:11:00 PM »
That 150 damage is free, no-investment damage. It requires nothing a club and either a hide check or good initiative.

To fully optimize the auto-crit system, you force the rogue to spread its cash even thinner in order to depend on its weapons. Remember, a skill monkey needs INT, DEX, CON, and can't afford to dump cash on a weapon for every occasion.

I'll concede, though, that for martial classes already dependent on weapon abilities like the blackguard, the auto-crit ability would definitely work better than sneak attack, both flavor-wise and mechanically. A Slow burst weapon becomes their best friend, in that case.

Rogues, however, the original sneak attackers, have better things to worry about that what awesome way the DM will allow them to turn from Tony Stark to Iron man. That unspoken class feature of most martial classes that allows them to do passable damage is one that rogues are thankfully immune to. They need to spend their precious gold for other, more flavorful things.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

altpersona

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 10:17:55 PM »
its not really free, they invested lots of levels / feats / spells / stuff into it and is subject to lots of dice rolls.

the proposed option still requires SA conditions, Ffoot ect..

i dont agree about item investment, martial, and most other characters for that matter, are usually heavily item invested. not to mention wish economics.

for me, my best argument against is that it may encourage rocket tag. a game that martial players loose.
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SneeR

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 10:22:41 PM »
Yes, a game that martial characters lose, and that medium BAB guys shouldn't even consider.

Is this variant for a game you are thinking about, or you just ponddering the ramifications?
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

altpersona

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 10:23:24 PM »
pondering


i havent gotten to play in many many months.
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

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Anim-manga sux.


SneeR

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 12:57:05 AM »
i havent gotten to play in many many months.

Oh, bummer. Me, either, actually. I am off at college, and my group is back home. Can't wait to get back and DM some dungeony, dragony goodness.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

altpersona

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 01:12:26 AM »
whats worse, im back home...

my work schedule is almost chaotic, so i cant really make a fixed day/time game...
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.


Rejakor

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 11:59:11 AM »
i havent gotten to play in many many months.

Oh, bummer. Me, either, actually. I am off at college, and my group is back home. Can't wait to get back and DM some dungeony, dragony goodness.

Start a group at college, unless you're actually so busy you can't afford the time.

SneeR

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 03:08:29 PM »
i havent gotten to play in many many months.
Oh, bummer. Me, either, actually. I am off at college, and my group is back home. Can't wait to get back and DM some dungeony, dragony goodness.
Start a group at college, unless you're actually so busy you can't afford the time.

Hammer on the nail there, bub. I have enough time to play, but not the time to gather up prospective players and teach them the rules, then actually play. I have played via Skype with my group back home, but they are also in a more local college, which takes their time equally...

Oh, the woes of higher education.
The answer to everything:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 04:49:17 PM »
Auto-crit damage will FAR outstrip the sneak attack damage by 20th level. Not even close. Let's talk about some unoptimized numbers for a minute.

Rogue 20 with Str 22 has a +6 modifier. He's got Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Mercurial Greatsword). When he attacks with his +5 Mercurial Greatsword he Power Attacks for, let's say 5, and leap attacks. His damage on a successful hit is 2d6+34, and with the auto-crit that turns into 8d6+136. That's one attack and it already exceeds making five sneak attacks or +50d6. And the numbers only go up from here.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 04:58:30 PM »
Auto-crit damage will FAR outstrip the sneak attack damage by 20th level. Not even close. Let's talk about some unoptimized numbers for a minute.

Rogue 20 with Str 22 has a +6 modifier. He's got Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Mercurial Greatsword). When he attacks with his +5 Mercurial Greatsword he Power Attacks for, let's say 5, and leap attacks. His damage on a successful hit is 2d6+34, and with the auto-crit that turns into 8d6+136. That's one attack and it already exceeds making five sneak attacks or +50d6. And the numbers only go up from here.
Wait, what? How is that not optimized? Non-optimizers wouldn't have even heard of Leap Attack and Mercurial weapons...
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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bkdubs123

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 05:09:31 PM »
Auto-crit damage will FAR outstrip the sneak attack damage by 20th level. Not even close. Let's talk about some unoptimized numbers for a minute.

Rogue 20 with Str 22 has a +6 modifier. He's got Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Mercurial Greatsword). When he attacks with his +5 Mercurial Greatsword he Power Attacks for, let's say 5, and leap attacks. His damage on a successful hit is 2d6+34, and with the auto-crit that turns into 8d6+136. That's one attack and it already exceeds making five sneak attacks or +50d6. And the numbers only go up from here.
Wait, what? How is that not optimized? Non-optimizers wouldn't have even heard of Leap Attack and Mercurial weapons...

Mercurial Weapons maybe not, but Leap Attack is hardly obscure. It's right there in the first supplement any non-optimizer was likely to look at. Instead of the Mercurial Weapon, the Rogue just uses Scythe then, as has already been mentioned. The difference in damage is absolutely negligible and it still outstrips a full sneak attack routine in one hit. It's not optimized* because the damage can keep on ramping up by A LOT.

Not that I think this is a bad thing, I'm just arguing against SneeR who is saying that the auto-crit is a nerf to the damage, which is only true if we're talking about Rogues running around with Str 10 and attacking with (non-punching) Daggers.

*EDIT: Of course, if you want to compare the +50d6 sneak attack with full BAB + haste numbers to I'm a complete newb auto-crit numbers, then let's. Some weird build somehow has full BAB +10d6 sneak attack and all day haste. let's say that costs him roughly three feats and some class features. If he hits with all five of his attacks, we'll say he's got Str 28 and is using a +5 Greatsword for great justice, then he deals 60d6+18 damage, or an average of 228 damage, right? Okay, so now we have bum fuck Rogue 20 with auto-critTM, with Str 22 and Dex 24, who took for his feats, Weapon Proficiency (Scythe), Weapon Focus (Scythe), Iron Will, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Hand Crossbow), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Crossbow), Endurance, and Diehard. Whatever. If he hits with one +5 Scythe attack he can use one of his 10 auto-critsTM per encounter to deal 8d4+56 damage, or an average of 76. Of course, that's just one attack, so if he hits with three attacks that's, what do you know, 228 damage. So, in conclusion, we have a fictional, non-existant, but still optimized build dealing the exact same damage as a remedial D&D Rogue with auto-critTM.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 05:23:37 PM by bkdubs123 »

altpersona

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 05:36:32 PM »
rogue 20, not since 1998.

it has to put up w/ save or dies, no save just dies... casters still win.

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altpersona

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 05:53:48 PM »
how about a multi stage break down.

rouge lvl 1, 1 SA, deals d6(?)+mod ++ = ~ 20dmg. ish. vs ?10dmg?

rouge 3/SA fighter 3, 4 SA, deals D12 (great axe x3) =~ 54?dmg (7wp + 5 ab mod + pa 5 + 1wp ench) vs. (7 + 5 +5 + 1 + SA 14?) =~32

after that prestiges freak out for most CO builds.

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bkdubs123

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 06:02:07 PM »
rogue 20, not since 1998.

it has to put up w/ save or dies, no save just dies... casters still win.

Again, I'm not trying to say that the auto-crit idea is bad. I'm just refuting the idea that it's somehow a huge nerf to Rogue damage.

Some weird build somehow has full BAB +10d6 sneak attack and all day haste. let's say that costs him roughly three feats and some class features. If he hits with all five of his attacks, we'll say he's got Str 28 and is using a +5 Greatsword for great justice, then he deals 60d6+18 damage, or an average of 228 damage, right? Okay, so now we have bum fuck Rogue 20 with auto-critTM, with Str 22 and Dex 24, who took for his feats, Weapon Proficiency (Scythe), Weapon Focus (Scythe), Iron Will, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Hand Crossbow), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Repeating Crossbow), Endurance, and Diehard. Whatever. If he hits with one +5 Scythe attack he can use one of his 10 auto-critsTM per encounter to deal 8d4+56 damage, or an average of 76. Of course, that's just one attack, so if he hits with three attacks that's, what do you know, 228 damage. So, in conclusion, we have a fictional, non-existant, but still optimized build dealing the exact same damage as a remedial D&D Rogue with auto-critTM.

I'm pretty sure these numbers show quite clearly my point that giving the Rogue auto-critTM makes him deal more damage than normal compared with regular sneak attack. Let me repeat myself: I'm not declaring auto-critTM is a bad mechanic because it out damages sneak attack. I don't really care. The point is that it's not a nerf.

Does it mean that all Rogues are going to be using x4 weapons? Yes. Anyone with the most basic grasp of the concept of numbers knows that 3 is more than 2 and 4 is more than 3, so even a preschooler would select the weapon with the higher critical multiplier if given the choice. Is that desirable for your games? If not, how do you fix that issue?

Rejakor

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Re: proposed houserule , peach it: Sneak attack and critical hits
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 06:59:46 AM »

Hammer on the nail there, bub. I have enough time to play, but not the time to gather up prospective players and teach them the rules, then actually play. I have played via Skype with my group back home, but they are also in a more local college, which takes their time equally...

Oh, the woes of higher education.

It takes way less time to gather a group than it does to play a session.  Just go to your uni's anime society/game society/geek society and go to the head honcho 'I want to run a DnD game and i'm willing to teach noobs, do you think anyone would want to play?'.  From that one sentence you should end up with a group.  Then take like the first session to create characters.  Then start the game the next session.  Don't bother teaching rules... let people learn them on their own if they want, and otherwise use the good ol' 'I want to stab this guy' 'okay, roll one of the 20 sided dice, and tell me what the number is on your sheet where it says 'B-A-B' and your strength modifier... that's the smaller number next to strength, the one with the plus in front of it.. yeah.. okay, you've got a +2 and a +1?  Right, you get to add 3 to whatever number you roll.. so roll.. okay, you got 16?  Alright, that hits him.. now roll one of these for damage and add your strength modifier.. yeah that's the +1.. alright, 7 damage, you just gutted the town guardsman trying to arrest you for peeing on the mayor's statue... his partner rings his bell and shouts come from the side streets as guard patrols converge on you...'  etc etc.  It'll crawl a bit and you'll have to make the fights easier than you otherwise would, but it'll be a game and they'll pick up the rules from using them far faster than from reading the PHB cover to cover.



On Rogue crits;  Making it a crit is bad.  Making it double damage is slightly better, but you end up with Str based ubercharger rogues.  Also, double 1d4-1 is WAY less than 1d4-1+3d6.  So halfling rogues with low strength don't exist anymore.

If you want to have less dice rolling, have the rogue add double their rogue level to damage if they sneak attack.