E6 - Maximizing Gather Information

[Cagemarrow]

I'm looking at getting both of those feats, but they're low priority at the moment. Still trying to get a feel for the campaign overall and I may need to put in an effort to make my character tougher in combat first.

Lots of good ideas though Charm Person may be a bit overkill at the moment. I should be able to use disguise and diplomacy to get any information that charm would get. As long as time isn't an issue at least. I'll definitely keep it in the back of my mind though.

[dark_samuari]

Guerrero sounds like a fun character to play, but may be a bit too rutheless for what I had in mind. We'll see though, it's possible that the story may push him to such extremes.

The best part about Guerrero though is while he is terrifying to his foes, he actually is a rather nice gentleman to his friends & allies.

He just happens to be one of those people who if you cross him he'll hunt you down.

[awaken DM golem]

imo --- E6 makes feats the "cheap" way of getting something.
But it makes class features more valuable and rare, so the build is the thing.
Most of the M.o.I. stuff you need can be done via feats.

Of course custom magic items or Item Familiar or
a Nanobots-lite aid another spam, can get results.

[Cagemarrow]

Well, we're playing with a No Multiclassing XP penalty rule so what would you recommend as far as good class features for this kind of build? I'm thinking that I really like the Cloistered Cleric idea for domains and the Lore ability. Incarnum is going to be a tough sell to my DM since he doesn't know anything about the rules. What other low level features would be worth persuing that can't be replicated with feats?

[Shadowhunter]

Not to mention the Con requirements of binding soulmelds.
If your changeling has Con 10 he can't bind any soulmelds, he needs Con 11 to be able to bind 1.
So in that case you'll need 2 more feats so that you can gain a Con boost. So it's not worth it.
Combined with having to explain soulmelds... yeah.

[Cagemarrow]

Anyone know if there is an Errata for Races of Eberron? I'm looking at the Racial Substitution level for Changeling rogue at level 3 and it says base attack +3. If I take a level of Ranger, and then two of something else with Good BAB he'll end with a +6 BAB and qualify for improved and extra favored enemy. Gah so hard to decide.

[jeffrie]

From Complete Scoundrel: Skill Tricks

Assume Quirk Disguise 5 ranks Familiar viewers get no bonus to see through your disguise

Second Impression Bluff 5, Disguise 5, Make Bluff check to reestablish blown disguise

Social Recovery Bluff 8, Diplomacy 5, Make Bluff check to replace a failed Diplomacy check

Listen to This

[Cagemarrow]

Hmm, interesting idea about Church Inquisitor. That could cover the extra level before the Chameleon PrC pretty well and continue the theme of a character set to remove corruption from the government. Perhaps I can even convince the DM that his possition in the Justice System counts as membership for the prereq since he worships the ideal of community. Of course that means he'll also have to out some corruption in the covernment before 5th level. Shouldn't be that hard though.

1 Rogue Changeling Sub
2-4 Cloistered Cleric (Community, Mind, Knowledge Devotion)
5 Church Inquisitor
6 Chameleon

[Hallack]

I love Chameleon but I'm not sure what you are wanting out of it for this character?

I'm not saying it is bad in an E6 game.  It is a great way to finish off otherwise non-caster builds.  It certainly does still give some flexibility but taking Chameleon instead of one more level of Church Inquisitor you are loosing access to 3rd level spells.  Yes, some of the 2nd level spells you'd get from Chameleon are 3rd level for other lists I realize.

Don't take this as saying don't be Chameleon.  Just being a sounding wall. 

[Cagemarrow]

Which I definately appreciate it.

I'm interested in chameleon for the versatility it provides. Our group doesn't otherwise have a general caster and with feats id be able to make magic items we may not get access to without. Its a tough choice between personally becoming immune to charms and getting 3rd level spells, or doubling my 2nd level spells and having access to all arcane or divine lists.

[Hallack]

Depending on what Divine lists your DM gives you access even 2nd level spells can be very nice.  Also see if DM allows domain spells as that will open up a lot of arcane things as well. 

[Cagemarrow]

I should have access to everything a 6th level character would have access too, so some of the lists may be more restricted than just the spell level. Ex Trapsmith only have access to their 1st level spells.

[jeffrie]

I'm thinking that you can find a lot of nice spells with the chameleon flexibility of "any list". In an E6 game, where 3rd level spells are fairly rare, the ability to choose off any list will net such trinkets as:

2nd
Bard 2 -- Tongues^PHB: ( Let's not kid ourselves: a lot of people go into divination for forgery. This helps a lot, assuming that you get to write the language too. Even if you don't it's still a really useful spell.

Druid 2 -- Wild Instincts^RoE: ( +10 insight to Listen and Spot is quite good, but the real winner here is always keeping Dex to AC. Sneak Attack? I think not!

[Cagemarrow]

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

Instant Search
Knock (1st from Trapsmith)
Divine Insight
True Strike - for when you absolutely can't miss
Wings of Cover - wands of this are ridiculously useful
Ghoul Glyph
Detect Favored Enemy - for placing on an Item for UMD usage, maybe not as useful in a city but could by handy for tracking down that aberration/shapechanger that got away

[Cagemarrow]

I'm wondering if it would be better to go Bard instead of Cleric, same skill points, fewer spells but Bardic Music and at 6th Level he could take the Lyric Spell Feat. Start taking Extra Music Feats and gain multiple extra spells per day per feat. It would be limited to his bard spells though since they have to be spontaneously cast arcane spells. Extra Spell would have to be taken to expand his Spells Known, but that would only get him 0 or 1st level spells. Or maybe Extra Slot would be better, and just gain extra 1st or 2nd level spells if he goes 5 levels in cleric instead.

Gah, just too many options are available. I thought E6 would be over limiting for me to enjoy properly and am finding that really isn't the case.

[jeffrie]

I thought about suggesting bard earlier.

Bard spell progression is slow. You will have all those spells anyway when you get Chameleon.

The CC/Inquisitor choice will give you 4 domains, 2 with domain powers you can choose. Some of them are really cool.

Drop the rogue. You get 3rd level spells if you go CC5, and will once again give you access to spells that you would never get otherwise, including (with domains) third level acane/crossclass spell list access to such gems as:

K 3 Clairaudience/Clairvoyance Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3: Hear /see at distance for 1 min./level.

O 3 Divination Clr 4, Knowledge 4: Provides useful advice for specific, proposed action.

Ti 3 Haste Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3: One creature/level moves faster, +1 on attack

Tra 3 Fly: Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3 Subject flies at speed of 60 ft.

Tri 3  Nondetection: Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 3, Trickery 3 Hides subject from divination, scrying.

CC5/ Chameleon 1 might be the strongest spellcaster in E6. Certainly one of the strongest i can think of. You'll be casting 3rd level arcane and divine spells.

Consider the feat 'Spontaneous Domains'. Make sure it's the one that let's you cast your domain spell from any of your domains. Since your in E6 you get extra feats? You can also take 'Domain Spontaneity' which lets Spontaneously Convert to your domain of choice, which is nice when you have 4 domains and most the world only has 12-15 spells a day and you have 24 .

With this build you will have just a bit less Gather Info, but a ton more spells to do it for you 

[Felix Underwood]

Other spells to check out:  wieldskill, later replaced by guidance of the avatar.

[Cagemarrow]

We've started game play already so I can't really switch out the rogue level, at least not without first taking a few open minded feats to cover the lost skill points first, loss of the Changeling Social Abilities would hurt too. But definitely something to keep in mind.

Changeling Rogue 1
Cleric 3
Inquisitor 1
Chameleon 1

Seems to be the build with the most versatility for me at the moment. Man is my BAB going to suck, at least 3 levels of +0.

We're heading into the mountains outside the city next session to purchase supplies for making some black powder and the GM has made some hints that goblins from the west have made it to the countryside. We'll see if he even survives to get any of these levels.

[jeffrie]

We've started game play already so I can't really switch out the rogue level, at least not without first taking a few open minded feats to cover the lost skill points first, loss of the Changeling Social Abilities would hurt too. But definitely something to keep in mind.

 Man is my BAB going to suck, at least 3 levels of +0.

Your not stuck. Just tell your DM and change characters. It's a game, and though there should be some continuity, you should get to play what you want.

The loss of skill points is nothing, and everyone will tell you i'm a skill junkie. I'm talking about a crapload of 3rd and 4th level spell access in an E6 game. You'll have plenty of small spells to make up the loss of skill based divination or stealth.

In your current build your BAB will be 2, and unless you have lots of magic that's going to hurt. Even straight mages will have 3. You do fight in this campaign?

BTW. The build i suggested has BAB 3, only one behind the cleric max, and on par with all straight class 3/4 bab of level 5.

It's not that i don't like your ideas or see your plight. It's just that E6 forces build economy and i am thinking 'out loud'.

[Cagemarrow]

Yep, I'll see how things go with the current build and if he doesn't last I'll take the lessons for my new character. We will have an opportunity to change characters as the game progresses anyway. There's talk of starting a revolutionary movement which we can use to pull in other characters while our current ones deal with non adventure stuff for a while. Think extra teammates in games like dragon age or mass effect, you pick the members best suited for certain missions.