The Speed-Rogue (Optimization Challenge)

[AriasDerros]

SorO_Lost, couldn't help noticing that you had a ? for Fleet of Foot. It's a regional feat out of PGtF that requires Elf, Half-Elf, or Human. Also, Blade dance doesnt have it's superscript, should read ^OAdischarge

[skydragonknight]

It is interesting that the duration was apparently deleted. Though a spell with no listed duration would be hard to persist as well, since it has no duration to increase... But yeah, looks like they goofed pretty badly. Should have been [Addition] instead of [Substitution] which could have given "1 rnd/level or See Text".

But let's look at Footsteps' errata:

dischargeThis
effect lasts until the end of your
turn

My reading is: the spell ends, but at the same time creates a new effect that lasts 1 round (similar to how Contingency creates a new effect when it ends).

It was primarily the "shorten duration to 1 round" that left FotD out of the Discharge club. But not only was that changed, but they surgically added the word "discharge" to remove any doubt. In other words, the spell was errata'd precisely to prevent it from working with Persistent Spell. This is probably because in my Chuck thread I laid down the exact logic behind FotD being Persistable (absence of "discharge" and the spell duration merely changing). The changes made to the text destroyed my previous argument for the combo's validity, putting Chuck on too shaky grounds to be an honest, legit build and into the realm where it takes very precise interpretations to make it work. I cannot endorse such a build, even if it was the work of my own hands (yeah yeah Snakeman you were a contributor. ).

[snakeman830]

I didn't contribute much, just the dojores of Hustle.

I do think, however, that Footsteps of the Divine was eratted because of Chuck.  Occasionally, WotC does look at their own message boards and I'm pretty sure that thread caught their eye.

[AriasDerros]

I didn't contribute much, just the dojores of Hustle.

I do think, however, that Footsteps of the Divine was eratted because of Chuck.  Occasionally, WotC does look at their own message boards and I'm pretty sure that thread caught their eye.

Yeah, THAT gets errata. But Serpent Kingdoms? NOOOOOOOOO. WoTC is not cool with you moving fast, but dealing x 4 damage a hit for a +3 enhancement, having uncapped damage added to poison, or you-know, getting every ability in the game, WoTC is apparently fine with.

[snakeman830]

Probably because Complete Champion is A. newer (most FR books were 3.0, and I think Serpent Kingdoms was one of them) and B. non-setting specific.  Also, most of the info in there was not something that most players will be capable of using (the dagger, not so much).

Also, Manyfang is a flat 30 k, not a +3 enhancement

EDIT: Serpent Kingdoms is 3.5, but it was still early on when they thought Monks and Wizards belonged in the same party without balance issues...

[SorO_Lost]

SorO_Lost, couldn't help noticing that you had a ? for Fleet of Foot. It's a regional feat out of PGtF that requires Elf, Half-Elf, or Human. Also, Blade dance doesnt have it's superscript, should read ^OA.

Fixed.

I didn't contribute much, just the dojores of Hustle.

I do think, however, that Footsteps of the Divine was eratted because of Chuck.  Occasionally, WotC does look at their own message boards and I'm pretty sure that thread caught their eye.

I'm sure it was too. As I've mentioned "See Text" isn't enough to meet Persist Spell's requirement too. We're just bickering about the semantics of "discharge" and how FotD's errata fucks everything up. I'll ponder Aria's comment later, kinda like I'll shove in Hustle later. My fingers hurt. >.>

[AriasDerros]

Also, Manyfang is a flat 30 k, not a +3 enhancement

[derail]
Not in my group.

As per the MIC, you are allowed to reverse engineer the stats on unique items and figure their worth. Manyfang has a cost of 32,302 for +1 manyfang dagger.

There are two ways of reversing this.
A) -2,302 for cost of +1 MW dagger leaving cost at 30,000 for Manyfang
B) -302 for cost of MW dagger, leaving 32,000 for magic, lookup reveals that 32,000 = +4, subtract the +1 = +3 for a Manyfang quality

We ruled that +3 is more reasonable since that scales more quickly than a flat cost.
[/derail]

[snakeman830]

Actually, that makes sense and is significantly more balanced that way.

[SorO_Lost]

Actually, that makes sense and is significantly more balanced that way.

Indeed. It would make an excellent balanced house rule.

Like, Life Drinker is a +1 greataxe and costs 40,320. That's 20 for the axe & 300 for masterwork leaving 40k left over. Normally one would say the Life Drinker property costs 38k based on removing the 2k in value from the +1. However you could call it +3 & 8k which totals up to the same but in the long run costs significantly more. Which is good seeing how a Necropoliton uses this to deal 2 negative levels per hit.

[snakeman830]

Difference is that the Manyfang Dagger is exactly equal to the cost of a +4 weapon whereas the Life Drinker isn't.

[X-Codes]

Difference is that the Manyfang Dagger is exactly equal to the cost of a +4 weapon whereas the Life Drinker isn't.

Also, the two negative levels per hit really doesn't care what the rest of the weapon is doing.  The effect of 2 negative levels is more or less constant.  On the other hand, with a Manyfang Dagger you've got the Manyfang property increasing in value when you increase the enhancement bonus or add in a mod like Collision.

[SorO_Lost]

Difference is that the Manyfang Dagger is exactly equal to the cost of a +4 weapon whereas the Life Drinker isn't.

Also, the two negative levels per hit really doesn't care what the rest of the weapon is doing.  The effect of 2 negative levels is more or less constant.  On the other hand, with a Manyfang Dagger you've got the Manyfang property increasing in value when you increase the enhancement bonus or add in a mod like Collision.

Ahh I was just using Life-Drinker as my example. Any specific weapon that doesn't equal out to an exact bonus could be formulated to use the nearest highest valued bonus and an additional amount of gold in order to increase the overall cost as a very quick house rule for handling things.

[AriasDerros]

Wow, didn't think my method would get this much attention.

I must have used hypercognition.

And sor0 is using the same method i used for the rather confusing pricing of the crystal echoblade

[Littha]

Don't know if it has been mentioned but Werecheetahs can charge 10 times their normal speed even in their human form because of the wording of the template.

[spoiler]

Special Qualities
A lycanthrope retains all the special qualities of the base creature and the base animal, and also gains those described below.

Note the lack of:

Special Attacks
A lycanthrope retains the special attacks of the base creature or base animal, depending on which form it is using, and also gains the special attacks described below.

Then see Cheetah:

Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, sprint

Thus a Werecheetah retains is sprint ability in any form.
[/spoiler]


 3hd and 2/3 LA.

[sirpercival]

In terms of the SoH and Tumble checks, an Item Familiar is boss.  You need a 35 Tumble check and a 40 SoH to auto-succeed.

Longstride Shifter Druidic Avenger 5/Factotum 8/Horizon Walker 1/Ardent 1 with Dark (+1LA) and Shadow (+2LA) templates and the Quick trait.

32PB: 18 Dex (16 pts), 18 Int (16 pts), becomes 20 Dex, 19 Int with racial adjustments and stat bumps.  

Feats -- Longstride Elite, Item Familiar, Cheetah's Speed, Wild Talent, Speed of Thought, Fleet of Foot, Endurance, Craft Wondrous Item, Run (2 flaws, 1 feat bought & retrained)

For the relevant skills, we have:
Tumble +17 ranks +8 Dex +7 Int +2 Jump synergy +1 Item Familiar = +35 total
Sleight of Hand +17 ranks +8 Dex +7 Int +2 Bluff synergy +17 Item Familiar = +51 total
UMD +17 ranks +17 Item Familiar -1 Cha = +33 total

Horizon Walker lets you be immune to fatigue, so you can keep walking and not sleep (though you need to sleep to regen spells and use/day things).  Carrying capacity = haversack.

WBL (level 15) = 200k
Items:
~Otyugh Hole or similar (3000)
~Haversack (2000)
~Boots of Running [continuous Haste and Footsteps of the Divine (Farlanghan), factotum only, must have Run feat] (5*3*2000*1.75*.9*.7 = 33,075)
~Gloves of Dex +6 (36000)
~Headband of Int +6 (36000)
~Periapt of Wis +6 (36000) [for Ardent, Druid]
Remaining gp: 53,925

Speed:
Cheetah's Speed 50
Longstride Shifter +10
Longstride Elite +10
Dark Creature +10
Quick trait +10
Fleet of Foot +10
Speed of Thought +10
Freedom Mantle +10
Haste +30
Footsteps of the Divine +50
Shadow Creature *1.5
= 350

You can also get extra standard actions to move some more by spending Inspiration points as normal.  If you're willing to remove a few of the feats (like taking out Speed of Thought and Wild Talent) you can get Font of Inspiration to do this more often.


EDIT:  Oops.  I can is maths good.  200 * 1.5 = 300, not 350.

[Cagemarrow]

If you can fit 6 levels of Dragon Fire Adept their Humanoid Shape ability would let you gain the Varrag's base speed, then the class level stuff could be stacked on top of that. I think you'd lose the other racial bonuses to speed not granted by items or feats though.

[awaken DM golem]

Class
Feral 1^SS: +1 Template, +10 untyped.
Shadow Creature 2^LoM: +2 Template, x1.5 Multiplier (not counted now, see below).

Anything 2: will fill in later.
=+200 (240)

Feats

Fleet of Foot^PGtF: +10 untyped. (note was just told it is human/elf, too lazy to remove from the figures for now).
=+30 (270)

Items
Badge of Valor^MiC: +5 moral.
Armor of Quickness^SRD: +5 untyped.
Fast Leg^FF: +10 untyped.
Shaundakul's Boots^MoF: +10 untyped.
Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis^ToM: +10 untyped.
=+40 (310)

LA buy-off easily gets rid of Shadow Creature Template, freeing up 2 levels.

If you keep Feral, buy-off doesn't get rid of it. I'd say you're level 19 and have some exp to burn.

Sav Species ritual can get the Human/Elf tag, to make the feat work. (obscure so idk details)

Lots of money left !

[Tr011]

Thanks for all the answers.
@sirpercival: Nice build, with some bag of holdings added, a Belt of Hidden Pouches (5k) and a +1 somewhat Armor of Easy Travel (medium load=light load) and +1 armor spikes of Eager and Warning (21k + regular armor cost) you can carry all you want and got some +ini just in case.