Author Topic: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt  (Read 12247 times)

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InnaBinder

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"It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« on: September 14, 2011, 06:44:24 PM »
I've seen this happen at essentially every PnP RPG table I've ever been to, from both sides of the GM screen - and no, I'm not the instigator.  We've touched briefly on it before in a couple of threads, but I wanted to create a single thread to discuss the issue(s) involved.

Basically, the issue is this:  Whenever something happens within a game that even appears to advance an overarching story-hook, one or more of the players invariably makes an OOC comment about "the DM obviously wants us to head this way", with varying degrees of smarm and resentment.  Either folks agree that the plot lies this way, and the PCs should continue down that road, or they behave as the thread title suggests, and quickly go do something else in the game "to avoid being railroaded". . . until the next recurring plot element indicates to them it's time to either ride the rails or gallivant off in some other random direction.

Now, I know the GM could reasonably ask the player(s) who make such OOC comments to stop the disruptive behavior, but that doesn't seem to address the root of the issue, to my mind.  The fact that it recurs so regularly tells me it's unlikely to be just a 'problem player', so there ought to be a better solution than "Stop doing that, Bob."

Have other folks seen this?  How do you handle it?
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veekie

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 07:22:33 PM »
Personally, by egging every side on in the OOC. 
I tend to use a bit more chaos-style, theres an overarching plot and events will happen, but what the PCs encounter is dynamic(thanks be to the PFRD monster index and the gamemastery guide's list of stock NPCs for every role and level category), so as long as they make a choice stuff happens.
If they pursue a path related to the plot, they get swift resolution and consequences(good or bad), if they pursue a tangent, plot events move on and the plot situation grows more complicated, like what you get when you give a kitty a roll of toilet paper. So actively pushing away from plot just makes it more event driven, things happen, because you aren't there to interfere, so instead of guiding events, the PCs will become guided BY events. By moving to the center of plot, or at least attempting to, the PCs become the fulcrum everything turns on.

Honestly I worry more about players just deadlocking on an issue. If they don't act you can't react.
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InnaBinder

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 07:33:04 PM »
Personally, by egging every side on in the OOC. 
I tend to use a bit more chaos-style, theres an overarching plot and events will happen, but what the PCs encounter is dynamic(thanks be to the PFRD monster index and the gamemastery guide's list of stock NPCs for every role and level category), so as long as they make a choice stuff happens.
If they pursue a path related to the plot, they get swift resolution and consequences(good or bad), if they pursue a tangent, plot events move on and the plot situation grows more complicated, like what you get when you give a kitty a roll of toilet paper. So actively pushing away from plot just makes it more event driven, things happen, because you aren't there to interfere, so instead of guiding events, the PCs will become guided BY events. By moving to the center of plot, or at least attempting to, the PCs become the fulcrum everything turns on.

Honestly I worry more about players just deadlocking on an issue. If they don't act you can't react.
When I have seen, or used, this method, it has had a tendency to increase the level of revolt, if anything.  Players who were attempting to get away from the main plot become increasingly frustrated when All Roads Lead To Rome and the Plot-Monster is around every corner, regardless of their choices.  Some players have also made comment about "the DM is punishing us for not pursuing [X]".  For these reasons, I'm not convinced this is a viable solution to the root issue.
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Kajhera

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 08:05:39 PM »
I stammer so much they're happy when I say anything comprehensible.  :p

More seriously, I have this tendency to just make fragments up beforehand, make things up as I go, and toss the fragments in when they seem appropriate where-ever the players wander to. Overarching plots are generally pretty sketchy until they get involved and interested enough in a fragment of one, at which point I start figuring out what it means in a more specific sense. If a player becomes particularly interested in a narrative detail I try and flesh it out to provide an interesting interaction, encounter, or connection to related things.

If a player isn't interested in a thing happening I won't deal too much with it. Let it get resolved however it would've without them. If it's not relevant to them - their choice.

I am fond of giving my players rewards that will invest them in an area, group of people, or purpose. Strongholds, vessels and vehicles, titles, reputation, relationships, sovereignty, guild membership - such things can help with focus and feeling like an integral part of the world. If my players give me backstory, acknowledging who they were in the world already can be quite rewarding.

veekie

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 08:52:55 PM »
When I have seen, or used, this method, it has had a tendency to increase the level of revolt, if anything.  Players who were attempting to get away from the main plot become increasingly frustrated when All Roads Lead To Rome and the Plot-Monster is around every corner, regardless of their choices.  Some players have also made comment about "the DM is punishing us for not pursuing [X]".  For these reasons, I'm not convinced this is a viable solution to the root issue.
The issue is that the consequences are simply more noticeable towards the core of the plot.  They are not good or bad consequences, but the PCs 'cost' for not pursuing the plot is completely expected, you chose not to interfere, therefore things move without your interference.

Its a matter of freedom and control.
When the PCs seek freedom, they have freedom to act, but have little impact on the world.
When the PCs seek plot, they voluntarily constrain their actions, but gain freedom to change the world.

Examples are simple:
If theres a war going on and you choose to ignore the war, the war becomes a backdrop. Armies march on, and change the landscape. You do what you want, but since you're acting on the fringes of events, larger events have more leverage on the things you do.
Instead, you engage with the war, perhaps join the armies, meddle with politics or sabotage its supplies. You steer the war. Maybe for the better or worse, but it moves at your will.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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oslecamo

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 09:03:26 PM »
Its a matter of freedom and control.
When the PCs seek freedom, they have freedom to act, but have little impact on the world.
When the PCs seek plot, they voluntarily constrain their actions, but gain freedom to change the world.
And that's what many people dislike. They want to change the world their own way. Which is quite a fantasy staple.

Examples are simple:
If theres a war going on and you choose to ignore the war, the war becomes a backdrop. Armies march on, and change the landscape. You do what you want, but since you're acting on the fringes of events, larger events have more leverage on the things you do.
Instead, you engage with the war, perhaps join the armies, meddle with politics or sabotage its supplies. You steer the war. Maybe for the better or worse, but it moves at your will.
Unless it's some intern-planar war, the players could to a lot of other stuff. They could go to other lands to get riches and power, wait for the war to end, then come back and take over once both sides have worn each other out. They could go to another plane do other stuff and eventualy forget there was even a war at all. They could go find another war more to their liking. They could murder both side's leaders and watch everything burn from there.

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 09:37:10 PM »
I stammer so much they're happy when I say anything comprehensible.  :p

At least I'm not the only on. My players hate it when I make things too open. With my current campaign I said I was going to go more of an Oblivion style an have there be a main plot, but it's whatever the players wanted to make of it. I was met with, "No, we want somethng resembling a plot and we can fuck it up from there." to put it in vulgar terms.

My players understand plot isn't railroading if they choose to become involved. And the entire concept of every game should be an open world is bullshit. Most DMs aren't equipped for that. As a DM, I have a specific plot line laid out - maybe more than one, maybe with a bunch of sidequestd, maybe it's a massive dungeon crawl. I have room for leeway in this, but if I set out to run the red hand of doom an the players run off to the desert, I'm not ready or prepared for that. It isn't my fault when characters don't act like themselves.

If the player doesn't like it - and was warned before hand about what the campaign will primarily be - it's his choice to even be involved in the campaign. I am not forcing them to show up or participate, but if they do and they are disruptive, I kindly ask him to knock it off before I ask him to leave.

That said, I also like getting player feedback on what they like, don't like and what needs to be adjusted so I don't get that forceful shove from the plot. More ninjas and less dungeons? I'll do what I can.

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 10:02:14 PM »
Have other folks seen this?  How do you handle it?

A lot of it depends on how good the DM is at coming up with stuff on the fly.  If she's good, then there's no problem with the PC's avoiding the plot and going off to do their own thing.  I personally enjoy it when they're self-motivated.  If the DM's bad, then there should probably be a gentlemen's agreement that they can make all the OOC comments they want, but they're follow the plot.  OTOH, the way the DM gets better is by letting it happen and gaining experience.  For the most part, when the PC's go off the path and the DM's not prepared for it, the game gets real boring real fast - and then the players cast "Detect Adventure" and get themselves back on track.

The DM can also allow the party to split into two groups.  When the 3 players that follow the plot get 3x the amount of time that the 1 player who doesn't follow the plot gets, he'll get bored soon enough and rejoin the party.  Though I don't like any of my players getting bored, so I try to avoid this.

In the games I run, I like to have an adventure ready, because the players don't have any idea what they want to do.  When they do, I roll with it.  Sometimes the plot resolves itself without them (some other party takes care of it), sometimes it escalates because they didn't deal with it, but usually it's there waiting for them whenever they want to do it.

As a side note, have you seen these 2 webcomics?  One has the DM being heavy-handed and controlling the PCs every move.  The other is the reverse where the PCs control the DM.  Both are based on popular movies, and done by the same guy.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html




Agita

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 10:17:58 PM »
Examples are simple:
If theres a war going on and you choose to ignore the war, the war becomes a backdrop. Armies march on, and change the landscape. You do what you want, but since you're acting on the fringes of events, larger events have more leverage on the things you do.
Instead, you engage with the war, perhaps join the armies, meddle with politics or sabotage its supplies. You steer the war. Maybe for the better or worse, but it moves at your will.
Unless it's some intern-planar war, the players could to a lot of other stuff. They could go to other lands to get riches and power, wait for the war to end, then come back and take over once both sides have worn each other out. They could go to another plane do other stuff and eventualy forget there was even a war at all. They could go find another war more to their liking. They could murder both side's leaders and watch everything burn from there.
All of those are examples of either the players ignoring the war and the war changing the world in their absence (whether the PCs change the world on their own elsewhere has no bearing on that, and other places will have plots as well), or the players changing the war and the world with it (the way in which they do so has no bearing ont he point of the argument).
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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InnaBinder

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 10:28:21 PM »
Examples are simple:
If theres a war going on and you choose to ignore the war, the war becomes a backdrop. Armies march on, and change the landscape. You do what you want, but since you're acting on the fringes of events, larger events have more leverage on the things you do.
Instead, you engage with the war, perhaps join the armies, meddle with politics or sabotage its supplies. You steer the war. Maybe for the better or worse, but it moves at your will.
Unless it's some intern-planar war, the players could to a lot of other stuff. They could go to other lands to get riches and power, wait for the war to end, then come back and take over once both sides have worn each other out. They could go to another plane do other stuff and eventualy forget there was even a war at all. They could go find another war more to their liking. They could murder both side's leaders and watch everything burn from there.
All of those are examples of either the players ignoring the war and the war changing the world in their absence (whether the PCs change the world on their own elsewhere has no bearing on that, and other places will have plots as well), or the players changing the war and the world with it (the way in which they do so has no bearing ont he point of the argument).
Precisely.  The players would still be reacting to the Plot-Monster.
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InnaBinder

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 10:31:44 PM »
Have other folks seen this?  How do you handle it?

A lot of it depends on how good the DM is at coming up with stuff on the fly.  If she's good, then there's no problem with the PC's avoiding the plot and going off to do their own thing.  I personally enjoy it when they're self-motivated.  If the DM's bad, then there should probably be a gentlemen's agreement that they can make all the OOC comments they want, but they're follow the plot.  OTOH, the way the DM gets better is by letting it happen and gaining experience.  For the most part, when the PC's go off the path and the DM's not prepared for it, the game gets real boring real fast - and then the players cast "Detect Adventure" and get themselves back on track.

The DM can also allow the party to split into two groups.  When the 3 players that follow the plot get 3x the amount of time that the 1 player who doesn't follow the plot gets, he'll get bored soon enough and rejoin the party.  Though I don't like any of my players getting bored, so I try to avoid this.

In the games I run, I like to have an adventure ready, because the players don't have any idea what they want to do.  When they do, I roll with it.  Sometimes the plot resolves itself without them (some other party takes care of it), sometimes it escalates because they didn't deal with it, but usually it's there waiting for them whenever they want to do it.

As a side note, have you seen these 2 webcomics?  One has the DM being heavy-handed and controlling the PCs every move.  The other is the reverse where the PCs control the DM.  Both are based on popular movies, and done by the same guy.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html




How do the PCs avoid the plot, without bumping into some other iteration of it?

If you reward those players who follow the plot more than those who do not, you are, in effect, punishing the players who do not do what you want.  Do you believe it's the DM's job to punish the players for their behavior?
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Agita

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 10:32:06 PM »
Examples are simple:
If theres a war going on and you choose to ignore the war, the war becomes a backdrop. Armies march on, and change the landscape. You do what you want, but since you're acting on the fringes of events, larger events have more leverage on the things you do.
Instead, you engage with the war, perhaps join the armies, meddle with politics or sabotage its supplies. You steer the war. Maybe for the better or worse, but it moves at your will.
Unless it's some intern-planar war, the players could to a lot of other stuff. They could go to other lands to get riches and power, wait for the war to end, then come back and take over once both sides have worn each other out. They could go to another plane do other stuff and eventualy forget there was even a war at all. They could go find another war more to their liking. They could murder both side's leaders and watch everything burn from there.
All of those are examples of either the players ignoring the war and the war changing the world in their absence (whether the PCs change the world on their own elsewhere has no bearing on that, and other places will have plots as well), or the players changing the war and the world with it (the way in which they do so has no bearing ont he point of the argument).
Precisely.  The players would still be reacting to the Plot-Monster.
Well, you can't not be react to the Plot-Monster.  If the players move away from the Plot-Monster to do something else, the DM has to come up with something else for them to do. If they decide to go shank a king for shits and giggles, getting to the king and the fallout from that action are yet another Plot-Monster. If what the players really want is no plot at all, then you basically have just scenery descriptions and one random encounter after the other. Is that what your players want?
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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oslecamo

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 10:37:05 PM »
Well, you can't not be react to the Plot-Monster.  If the players move away from the Plot-Monster to do something else, the DM has to come up with something else for them to do. If they decide to go shank a king for shits and giggles, getting to the king and the fallout from that action are yet another Plot-Monster. If what the players really want is no plot at all, then you basically have just scenery descriptions and one random encounter after the other. Is that what your players want?

So you're telling me that you have contigency plans for every possible things the players can decide to do about the war?  Because it really isn't plot anymore if you're improvising stuff on the moment.

veekie

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 10:44:04 PM »
^^
You don't have contingency plans for everything they might do. What you have is contingency plans for everything they are likely  to do this session and a rough idea of what they might do next session. The players can only act on what you present to them, which limits things significantly.
My players understand plot isn't railroading if they choose to become involved. And the entire concept of every game should be an open world is bullshit. Most DMs aren't equipped for that. As a DM, I have a specific plot line laid out - maybe more than one, maybe with a bunch of sidequestd, maybe it's a massive dungeon crawl. I have room for leeway in this, but if I set out to run the red hand of doom an the players run off to the desert, I'm not ready or prepared for that. It isn't my fault when characters don't act like themselves.
Indeed, true sandbox gaming is probably beyond most people who aren't into improvised theater or professional writers. On both sides of the GM screen. Sandbox games tend to waver and taper off unless:
A) The world is sufficiently detailed to find triggers and pull them, as well as having enough predetermined events that will occur without the PCs intervention that it seems alive.

B) Self motivated, cohesive players. Its all well and good for the characters to pursue their own motivations, but when they're haring off in five different directions even the best GM will be hard put to make it all work out.

I like using goalposts myself. Just note down key plot markers and check their status and likely consequences. This gives a lot of flexibility to tweak the details(oh so the PCs went to this town instead of this other location, sure, we can work with that), outright copy the details(the epic battle at the cliffside will now happen inside the church steeple instead) and keep track of the big picture(who's defeated, whose plans are in motion).
These work around the GM's human limitations, while he cannot create a perfect game, he can make the appearance of a perfect game. Taken to an extreme in a sandbox, this just means that the places you visit ARE the same. You're destined to go through the encounters sketched out, you just run into them in difference times and places. Its very heavy handed, but easier to master.
Quote
The DM can also allow the party to split into two groups.  When the 3 players that follow the plot get 3x the amount of time that the 1 player who doesn't follow the plot gets, he'll get bored soon enough and rejoin the party.  Though I don't like any of my players getting bored, so I try to avoid this.
Not that great an idea. The player who's being left out gets WORSE, because its punitive, and splitting the party causes a big headache to begin with(time and locations desync). If he won't go find the plot, build the plot under his feet, and if he persists in avoiding the plot...well obviously this game isn't for him.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Agita

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 10:45:05 PM »
Well, you can't not be react to the Plot-Monster.  If the players move away from the Plot-Monster to do something else, the DM has to come up with something else for them to do. If they decide to go shank a king for shits and giggles, getting to the king and the fallout from that action are yet another Plot-Monster. If what the players really want is no plot at all, then you basically have just scenery descriptions and one random encounter after the other. Is that what your players want?

So you're telling me that you have contigency plans for every possible things the players can decide to do about the war?  Because it really isn't plot anymore if you're improvising stuff on the moment.
Of course not, and why wouldn't it be? If the players take a direction you didn't anticipate and you come up with something new, that's still the direction of the game and the way the story takes shape, i.e. "plot". "Plot" does not mean a one-way railroad track. I do usually have contingencies for most of the most likely events, derived from my judgement of the players (for instance, I always keep basic stats of a given NPC that's not supposed to be a noncombatant handy, just in case - of course, this is far easier to do in DFRPG, the system I curretly DM, than in D&D), but if they do something unexpected, I need to come up with something else, and that's as much "plot" as the thing they walked away from.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Necrosnoop110

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 11:04:34 PM »
(thanks be to the PFRD monster index and the gamemastery guide's list of stock NPCs for every role and level category)
Where exactly is this and how do I get it?

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 11:18:12 PM »
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I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
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kitep

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 11:59:56 PM »
How do the PCs avoid the plot, without bumping into some other iteration of it?

Easy.  They go on to the next town.  Or look for another adventure.  For example, a guy runs bleeding and babbling about how some orcs just made off with his family.  Obvious plot, the PCs hunt down the orcs and rescue the family.  Instead, the PCs want to go dragon hunting.  Or the wizard wants to track down a spell he wants in his book.  So I'll let the players do what the want, and save the orc adventure for later if I ever need it.  Or knowing me, I'll play it for laughs, and each day will have the same guy coming in wailing about his family, and how the last group of adventurers went out and never came back.  Then another group.  Then another group.  Until there's a veritable pile of bodies if the PCs ever do get around to it.

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If you reward those players who follow the plot more than those who do not, you are, in effect, punishing the players who do not do what you want.  Do you believe it's the DM's job to punish the players for their behavior?

As I said, it's not a method I favor.  But if people want to do different things, and I decide to not just DM fiat that they can't split up, then I'll give everyone equal time.  I'm not rewarding those who follow the plot more, it's just that there's more of them so they get more time.


veekie

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2011, 12:03:27 AM »
^^
The example case of the orcs, depending on the bigger picture(a simple retrieval is just a fetch quest), you could have them go on to the next town, and a few days later get news from survivors that the previous town had the people set on fire and the buildings raped by orcs. There needs to be some overarching impact, or its not so much a plot as an event or quest.

Monsters by CR is pretty handy. I don't think the gamemastery guide is on the PFRD though, but ImperatorK's link seems to have that covered.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

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"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

oslecamo

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Re: "It's a Plot-Monster! RUN!" - Thoughts on Player Revolt
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 12:10:18 AM »
^^
The example case of the orcs, depending on the bigger picture(a simple retrieval is just a fetch quest), you could have them go on to the next town, and a few days later get news from survivors that the previous town had the people set on fire and the buildings raped by orcs. There needs to be some overarching impact, or its not so much a plot as an event or quest.

Acording to Agita, everything that happens is plot, because he claimed everything the DM throws at the players counts as plot.