Optimizing a Character Concept: The Tank

[Midnight_v]

The tank is already made. Everyone should go and thank Uncle Frank and Keith. They're fucking visionaries.

Knight
"Do you hear me you big lizard? You unhand that young man this instant!"

Knights are more than a social position, in fact many knights don't have any social standing at all. These knight errants uphold the values of honor, and make a name for themselves adventuring.

Playing a Knight: A Knight has the potential to dish out tremendous damage to a single opponent, and it is tempting to think of them as monster killers. However, it is best to realize in advance that the Knight does notdefensive tasks, and attacking a Knight is often one of the least effective options an opponent might exercise.



Alignment: Many Knights are Lawful. But not all of them. You have to maintain your code of conduct, but plenty of Chaotic creatures can do that too.

Races: Knights require a fairly social background to receive their training. After all, a solitary creature generally has little use for honor. As such, while Knights often spend tremendous amounts of time far from civilization, they are almost exclusively recruited from the ranks of races that are highly urban in nature.

Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)

Starting Age: As Fighter.

Hit Die: d12
Class Skills: The Knight's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History, Nobility, and Geography) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Designate Opponent, Mounted Combat, Code of Conduct
2 Damage Reduction
3 Energy Resistance, Speak to Animals
4 Immunity to Fear, Knightly Spirit
5 Command
6 Defend Others, Quick Recovery
7 Bastion of Defense, Draw Fire
8 Mettle, Spell Shield
9 Sacrifice
10 Knightly Order

All of the following are Class Features of the Knight class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Knights are proficient with all simple weapons and Martial Weapons. Knights are proficient with Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor, Shields and Great Shields.

Designate Opponent (Ex): As a Swift Action, a Knight may mark an opponent as their primary foe. This foe must be within medium range and be able to hear the Knight's challenge. If the target creature inflicts ay damage on the Knight before the Knight's next turn, the attempt fails. Otherwise, any attacks the Knight uses against the opponent during her next turn inflict an extra d6 of damage for each Knight level. This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally allotted her by her Base Attack Bonus.

Example: Vayn is a 6th level Knight presently benefiting from a haste spell, granting her an extra attack during a Full Attack action. On her turn she designates an Ettin as her primary opponent, and the Ettin declines to attack her during the ensuing turn. When her next turn comes up, she uses a Full Attack and attacks 3 times. The first two hits inflict an extra 6d6 of damage, and then she designates the Ettin as her opponent again. It won't soon ignore her![/list]

Mounted Combat: A Knight gains Mounted Combat as a bonus feat at 1st level. If she already has Mounted Combat, she may gain any Combat feat she meets the prerequisites for instead.

Code of Conduct: A Knight must fight with honor even when her opponents do not. Indeed, a Knight subscribes to honor to a degree far more than that which is strictly considered necessary by other honorable characters. Actions which even hint at the appearance of impropriety are anathema to the Knight:

• A Knight must not accept undo assistance from allies even in combat. A Knight must refuse bonuses from Aid Another actions.
  
• A Knight must refrain from the use poisons of any kind, even normally acceptable poisons such as blade toxins.
  
• A Knight may not voluntarily change shape, whether she is impersonating a specific creature or not.
  
• A Knight may not sell Magic Items.

A Knight who fails to abide by her code of conduct loses the ability to use any of her Knightly abilities which require actions until she atones.

Damage Reduction (Ex): A Knight trains to suffer the unbearable with chivalry and grace. At 2nd level, she gains Damage Reduction of X/-, where X is half her Knight level, rounded down.

Energy Resistance (Ex): A Knight may protect herself from energy types that she expects. As a Swift Action, a 3rd level Knight may grant herself Energy Resistance against any energy type she chooses equal to her Knight Level plus her Shield Bonus. This energy resistance lasts until she spends a Swift Action to choose another Energy type or her Shield bonus is reduced.

Speak to Animals (Ex): A Knight can make herself understood by beasts. Her steed always seems to be able to catch the thrust of anything she says. A 3rd level Knight gains a bonus to any of her Ride and Handle Animal checks equal to half her Knight Level. In addition, there is no limit to how many tricks she can teach a creature, and her Handle Animal checks are not penalized for attempting to get a creature to perform a trick it does not know.

Immunity to Fear (Ex): At 4th level, a Knight becomes immune to [Fear] effects.

Knightly Spirit (Ex): As a Move Equivalent Action, a 4th level Knight may restore any amount of attribute damage or drain that she has suffered.

Command: A Knight gains Command as a bonus feat at level 5.

Defend Others (Ex): A 6th level Knight may use her own body to defend others. Any ally adjacent to the Knight gains Evasion, though she does not.

Quick Recovery (Ex): If a 6th level Knight is stunned or dazed during her turn, that condition ends at the end of that turn.

Example: Vayn is hit by a mindblast and would be stunned for 7 turns. She misses her next action and then shakes off the condition ready to fight.[/list]

Bastion of Defense (Ex): A 7th level Knight can defend others with great facility. All adjacent allies except the Knight gain a +2 Dodge bonus to their Armor Class and Reflex Saves.

Draw Fire (Ex):

Mettle (Ex): An 8th level Knight who succeeds at a Fortitude Partial or Willpower Partial save takes no effect as if she had immunity.

For example, if Vayn was hit with an inflict wounds spell and made her saving throw, she would take no damage instead of the partial effect in the spell description (half damage in this case).[/list]
Spell Shield (Ex): An 8th level Knight gains Spell Resistance of 5 + her character level. This Spell Resistance is increased by her shield bonus to AC if she has one.

Sacrifice (Ex): As an immediate action, a 9th level Knight may make herself the target of an attack or targeted effect that targets any creature within her reach.

Knightly Order: What is a powerful Knight without a descriptive adjective? Upon reaching 10th level, a Knight must join or found a Knightly order. From this point on, she may ignore one of the prerequisites for joining a Knightly Order prestige class. In addition, becoming a member of an order has special meaning for a 10th level Knight, and she gains an ability related to the order she joins. Some sample orders are listed below:

• Angelic Knight The Angelic Knights are a transformational order that attempts to live by the precepts of the upper planes. An Angelic Knight gains wings that allow her to fly at double her normal speed with perfect maneuverability. Also an Angelic Knight benefits from protection from evil at all times.
  
• Bane Knight The Bane Knights stand for running around burning the countryside with extreme burning. Bane Knights are immune to fire and do not have to breathe. In addition, a Bane Knight may set any unattended object on fire with a Swift Action at up to Medium Range.
  
• Chaos Knight Chaos Knights stand for madness and Giant Frog. With the powers of Giant Frog, they can Giant Frog. Also their natural armor bonus increases by +5 and they are immune to sleep effects.
  
• Dragon Knight Dedicated to the Platinum Dragon, the Dragon Knights serve love and justice in equal measure as dishes to those who need them. A Dragon Knight gains a +5 bonus to Sense Motive and any armor she wears has its enhancement bonus increased to +5 (it also gains a platinum sheen in the process, and as a side effect a Dragon Knight is never dirty for more than a few seconds).
  
• Elemental Knight The Elemental Knights may be dedicated to a particular element, or somehow dedicated to all of them. An Elemental Knight can planeshift at will to any Inner plane or the Prime Material plane. Also, she is immune to stunning and always benefits from attune form when on any Inner Plane.
  
• Fey Knight Using the powers of the Sprites, the Fey Knight has many fairy strengths. Firstly, she gains DR 10/Iron. Also, any of her attacks may do non-lethal damage at any time if this is desired. Also she never ages and does not need to drink.
  
• Great Knight Clad in opulent armor, the Great Knight cares only for her own power. The Great Knight gains a +4 bonus on Disarm or Sunder tests, and gains a +4 Profane bonus to her Strength.
  
• Hell Knight Forged in the sulphurous clouds of Baator, the Hell Knight is bathed in an evil radiance. In addition to being granted a ceremonial weapon made of green steel, a Hell Knight gains the coveted see in darkness ability of the Baatorians. Also, she has an inherent ability to know what every creature within 60' of finds most repugnant.
  
• Imperial Knight The great Empire needs champions able to unswervingly support its interests, and the Imperial Knight is one of the best. She may impose a zone of truth at will as a Supernatural ability, and all of her attacks are Lawfully aligned. Also, she continuously benefits from magic circle against Chaos.
  

[bkdubs123]

Sorry, but I actually really dislike the Tome Knight. Not because it's only 10 levels long (that's not even really true with Knightly Order), but because a) it's only source of credible damage is purely reactionary; and b) it's only great at protecting party members within its reach (which won't be very many). That's not a great tank in my opinion. If enemies do attack the Knight instead of his allies, and if his allies aren't right next to him all the time (which will be most of the time), then the Knight is just a big wall of hp.

[Tr011]

I don't think the Knight is the answer since it's homebrew. The Knight from PHB2 is not, but what does that class miss that Frank's & Keith's Knight has?

I think a real Tank needs lots of immunities (so he doesn't get useless in combat by panicking, getting stunned, getting dazed, dying by getting critted etc.) and a Tank needs some things the barbarian already gives: improved movement speed and high HP. Add some sort of healing (I'm NOT talking about Fast Healing 5 at lvl12, I mean things like Wrathful Healing) and resistances (DR, resistance or immunity to elements etc.) and you got someone who doesn't die. But he also needs more: Wings to fly (pretty easy by grafts) and sometimes/day short-ranged-teleportation.

It was said a lot in this thread a Tank needs to hit hard, but I think that should not mean you instant-kill an enemy, Pounce to the next one and repeat... You just need to get an enemy down within some hits (maybe 2 for casters and 8 for HP-based monsters).
I like what CantripN wrote on the first page:

The best tank I'd faced was a Psionic Gish PC with hilarious reach (30" or more), Stand Still, the Mage Slayer line of feats, and a REALLY powerful defence and offence. The guy could shut down an equal level PARTY all alone - and we were all optimized, heavily.

It shows once again, that reach is pretty much the key to make a Tank useful. You stick the enemies to stay around yourself, so they can either hit you or get huge hits by your weapon while walking away/casting (or better: you have standstill and they can't get away).

[Unbeliever]

I think bkdubs123 makes fair points.

I was perfectly aware of the Tome Knight, actually I suspect almost everyone in this forum is to some degree, but I could totally be wrong.  Further, I think Midnight_V did summarize the relevant part of the Tome Knight class several posts up.  Which is to say, I don't think you need to work so hard to proselytize.  

On occasion I've even considered playing a Tome Knight.  The Tome material overall makes me leery, though, as it comes from very different assumptions about the game than I and my gaming groups make.  And, I worry about importing just parts of it.  

Also, will approximately 30 damage really make the difference?  At higher levels, will the possibility of taking an extra 10d6 damage per attack, so say maybe something on the order of 60 damage (assuming 2 attacks hit, which is already going to potentially require some work to move around the battlefield, depending on what other house rules you use) really going to deter that Pit Fiend from laying into the Mage?  

That being said, I like a lot of the Tome Knight.  And, I think it's pretty well thought-out:  e.g., you can't easily just circumvent its Designate Opponent ability with AoEs b/c of its Defend Others ability.  It's simply not the only way to build a Tank, and it's a little silly to suggest that it is.  If I thought that was the case, I'd just go play 4E.  It has strengths and weaknesses, which, I think, is only appropriate.  

P.S.:  I don't want to turn this into a thread about Tome, that's a subject for another time, but if I had oodles of time I'd probably love to go through and tweak or lift the things I like most in it.  

[Midnight_v]

No.  
Just no.
You're setting up some paradigm's that are totally out of synch. Well not troll1 but that in a second.
@BkDubs123
[spoiler]

a) it's only source of credible damage is purely reactionary

Okay well, to be fair it would access to tome feats and as much as I hate to say it items. Blitz which add's damage = to your base attack bonus is pretty vaild along with murderous intent and combat school. You can rack up some healthy damage even without knights challenge.

b) it's only great at protecting party members within its reach (which won't be very many).

That... thats not really true. Heres why:
Designate Opponent works at "medium range"! and thats the primary aggro mechanic. Draw fire is the aggro mechanic vs Mindless opponent and it works at what? Meduim range. Bastion of Defense actually just blankets the party with a +2 ac and reflex save. The only mechanics that works for the adjacent ally is: Sacrifice and Defend others.
It also adresses some of what NachoFan99 was saying:

Pardon me but, I included OBVIOUS flaws for said "Tank concept." 2.5 of them being 1) Bad AC  2) Possibly terrible Will Save 2.5) Not having Displacement/Mirror Image/Fly up and running, i.e. being able to actually be attacked.

[/spoiler]
@Unbeliever
[spoiler]

Further, I think Midnight_V did summarize the relevant part of the Tome Knight class several posts up.

Did I? I dont' remember mentioning it before...

Which is to say, I don't think you need to work so hard to proselytize.

It was  meant to be funny, unbeliever, that is all.

On occasion I've even considered playing a Tome Knight.  The Tome material overall makes me leery, though, as it comes from very different assumptions about the game than I and my gaming groups make.  And, I worry about importing just parts of it. 

Well thats kind of a big part of the problem people look at it and get leery and some of that is the way it written but its foolish to be afraid to import PARTS of it. Also, not turning into the tome thread but SOME of those diffrent from you and your gaming group, are likely correct, no offense. No group has all the answers. Not even the people who make the game.

Also, will approximately 30 damage really make the difference?

It affects every attack you make. So if you hit with both your attacks etc its more like 60 damage a round more if you use the tome feats. However, note that one of the more important assumptions is that the bab bonus scales better so you don't attack at 20/15/10/5.
 Lastly, the Knightly order prcs have other things going for them, aside from "more damage" hell the angelic knights gain wings. One of the biggest issues w/tanking is "getting there"

really going to deter that Pit Fiend from laying into the Mage?

maybe, maybe not, but giving it enough damage to do so, would offend some people. Bkdubs speaks above about Nuclear Deterent tanking and how thats not his vision of the tank, so it has a small line to work on for damage before people start complaining. Also, thtas 60 bonus damage per attack, in addition to whatever damage a 20 level Knight would otherwise be doing[/spoiler]
@Troll1
[spoiler]

I don't think the Knight is the answer since it's homebrew.

Okay, I respect your right to totally refuse to use homebrew. Good on ya.

The Knight from PHB2 is not, but what does that class miss that Frank's & Keith's Knight has?

Apparently unbeliever was mistaken, I didn't think everyone had seen it. I posted it so you could see, people who hadn't had a chancet to look. The phb 2 knight doesn't really do very much at all. Here's the link to the web preview. The Official Knight

I think a real Tank needs lots of immunities (so he doesn't get useless in combat by panicking, getting stunned, getting dazed, dying by getting critted etc.) and a Tank needs some things the barbarian already gives: improved movement speed and high HP. Add some sort of healing (I'm NOT talking about Fast Healing 5 at lvl12, I mean things like Wrathful Healing) and resistances (DR, resistance or immunity to elements etc.) and you got someone who doesn't die. But he also needs more: Wings to fly (pretty easy by grafts) and sometimes/day short-ranged-teleportation.

Okay. This implies to me that you didn't read the class that I posted at all.
I want you to understand that this is a class and really a system that allows for all the things you ask for above. Normally when people make the list of complaints and I point that out they go "Nu-uh, it TOME Material" Which is sad really but thats what I find, though I get you on the Homebrew no-go at all.

It was said a lot in this thread a Tank needs to hit hard, but I think that should not mean you instant-kill an enemy, Pounce to the next one and repeat... You just need to get an enemy down within some hits (maybe 2 for casters and 8 for HP-based monsters).

Same as above statment, and Unbeleiver was stating that its just not enough bonus damage but it really probbably is.

The best tank I'd faced was a Psionic Gish PC with hilarious reach (30" or more), Stand Still, the Mage Slayer line of feats, and a REALLY powerful defence and offence. The guy could shut down an equal level PARTY all alone - and we were all optimized, heavily.

It shows once again, that reach is pretty much the key to make a Tank useful. You stick the enemies to stay around yourself, so they can either hit you or get huge hits by your weapon while walking away/casting (or better: you have standstill and they can't get away).

Practical Tanking with existing material dictates that the "sticky knight" is one of the ways to go. "Sticky Gish" works just as well or better.  I would use either a wu-jen, or a cleric for this purpose. LIkely a cleric with the glory domain, someone did it with a build call facored soulzilla but really I'm just getting giantsize the spell, onto a build an using the same tactics as any other tank. I also like the caster tank for its ability to set up fields of darkness or walls or arbitrarium to protect his party from line of sight on a whim. You and I talking about practical tanking is ALMOST a min/max issue though. . .   [/spoiler]

[veekie]

Notice that the three things I set out above do not mean "heavily armored guys that takes hits for the party".  They mean "guy that can stop the enemies from hitting the party and not be stopped from this task".  Being hit is not a part of being a tank.  Stopping your allies from being hit is.

It does however, help if your tank can take hits, because if hes stopping enemies from hitting everyone else they're going to hitting him, and most 'tanks' can't even take one salvo.

A tank needs to be able to take some hits, but you're working off of the assumption that the enemies not being able to attack the tank's allies automatically means that they can target the tank.  This isn't necessarily true.  Some of the best ways to stop them from attacking allies leaves them unable to attack anyone, including the tank.

It helps if you can survive a salvo at least. When Designated Melee dies to full attacks(well ok, everything dies to full attacks that connect), it means meleeing is buggered out of the gate to begin with.

Plus you kinda want some padding for all the other ways to take you out.