Author Topic: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution  (Read 35298 times)

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Shiki

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2011, 04:20:12 PM »
The freaking crescent knife.
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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2011, 06:13:17 PM »
Weapons I have used...

I built a character to use a 3.5e sling for one of Cantrip'n's camps, but I was the *only* serious divine caster application, and the build lost 3 caster levels over the progression (Halfling Cleric + PrCs 17/Warblade 1/Adapted Bloodstorm Blade 2), so I eventually changed it out for a Cleric/Holt Warden app.  That one used a Club as a hold-out weapon, since it's a legal target for Brambles out of the box.

My E6 build of Panther Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 4 starts off using a Scimitar + Shield (before he gets Power Attack and while AC still matters), a Glaive (when I wanted a reach weapon), and a Heavy Flail (when I wanted to trip before I got the Improved Trip feat), and it later would probably change over quite well into a Dwarven War Pike.

A build that I've been newly kicking around is the idea of a Halfling Monk that would use Unarmed Strikes.  Probably using the Decisive Strike, Invisible Fist, Hin Disciple, and Dark Moon Disciple alterations to make it fit... something.  Final build would probably be something like Monk 9/Cleric 1/Sacred Fist 10 or Monk 11/Cleric 1/Sacred Fist 8.

I have made countless "rogues" that use some combination of Daggers, Rapiers, and Hand Crossbows.  My favorite was probably a Duergar Psi-Rogue that used Control Light and a Ring of the Darkhidden.  I also occasionally make rogues that are not combat-oriented at all, and I give them light crossbows.

I've got another "Rogue" that is more of a Wizard: Rogue 1/Wizard 1/Drow Paragon (3/3 casting) 3/Unseen Seer 5/Swiftblade 10 that will probably use a Longspear later in life.

I've made a typical Cleric Elf Archer once before.  Gave him that Longbow Relic that Corellon has.

Sometimes, I make melee Bards.  They have solid strength scores and decent attack mods even with ranged weapons, but no free feats for Brutal Throw, so I give them Shortbows as a distance option.

I have conceived of the idea of using 3.5e shuriken on a DSP-Enabled Half-Giant Soulknife (I use the term loosely, since DSP enables Mind Blades to be advanced simultaneously as Manifesting with +1 manifesting PrCs like Slayer).  There's a Mind Blade feat that lets you make a full attack with mindblade shuriken, carrying your mindblade enhancements, using Brutal + Power Throw to deal significant damage at a distance.  Might have even gotten it to qualify for Ranged Weapon Mastery.  I suppose that, technically, he would have used a Bastard Sword, too.

Ah, I also made a Dwarf Fighter that changed out it's racial familiarities to the War Pike and Buckler Axe (allowed, RAW, by Complete Warrior), and used them in conjunction for War Pike awesomeness and threatening adjacent with the Buckler Axe (both of which also benefitted from the Axe Focus feature I picked up, which is why it was marginally better than just Armor Spikes).  I believe I was headed towards a Dungeoncrasher / Driving Assault combination with that build, taking full round actions to smack people hard, send them flying (with a Bull Rush modifier in the triple digits), and then crash them into obstacles for more obscene damage with Dungeoncrasher.  If they survived, then I would get massive bonuses on a follow-up charge attack thanks to the Shock Trooper tactical.  Also, since he was using a War Pike, he could do pretty good with that chain-tripper shtick, too.

Oh, and I used a Glaive for a Xeph Warblade character I had.  I was relying on non-Strength modifiers for attack and damage rolls, so my strength was mediocre, but my Attack rolls were still decent, my move speed was really high, and I managed solid damage when I used a maneuver.  It was really intended to come into style at a later level, though, and never had the opportunity to fulfill the potential that I wanted for it.

amazingtrapsmith

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2011, 06:24:49 PM »
Buffing the martial characters instead of yourself.  Seems like that was the way the game was supposed to be played instead of DMM Persisting Divine Power and proceeding to surpass the martial characters.

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2011, 06:26:28 PM »
Ah, I also made a Dwarf Fighter that changed out it's racial familiarities to the War Pike and Buckler Axe (allowed, RAW, by Complete Warrior), and used them in conjunction for War Pike awesomeness and threatening adjacent with the Buckler Axe (both of which also benefitted from the Axe Focus feature I picked up, which is why it was marginally better than just Armor Spikes).  I believe I was headed towards a Dungeoncrasher / Driving Assault combination with that build, taking full round actions to smack people hard, send them flying (with a Bull Rush modifier in the triple digits), and then crash them into obstacles for more obscene damage with Dungeoncrasher.  If they survived, then I would get massive bonuses on a follow-up charge attack thanks to the Shock Trooper tactical.  Also, since he was using a War Pike, he could do pretty good with that chain-tripper shtick, too.

Triple-digit modifier?  How the smeg did you manage that one? O_O

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2011, 06:45:37 PM »
Ah, I also made a Dwarf Fighter that changed out it's racial familiarities to the War Pike and Buckler Axe (allowed, RAW, by Complete Warrior), and used them in conjunction for War Pike awesomeness and threatening adjacent with the Buckler Axe (both of which also benefitted from the Axe Focus feature I picked up, which is why it was marginally better than just Armor Spikes).  I believe I was headed towards a Dungeoncrasher / Driving Assault combination with that build, taking full round actions to smack people hard, send them flying (with a Bull Rush modifier in the triple digits), and then crash them into obstacles for more obscene damage with Dungeoncrasher.  If they survived, then I would get massive bonuses on a follow-up charge attack thanks to the Shock Trooper tactical.  Also, since he was using a War Pike, he could do pretty good with that chain-tripper shtick, too.

Triple-digit modifier?  How the smeg did you manage that one? O_O

The PHB II feat Driving Attack (Driving Assault is the Shock Trooper maneuver).  It replaces your typical Bull Rush modifier with "your total bonus on Damage rolls."  So at level 20, you'll be getting about +15 to damage from Strength, +80 from PA + Leap Attack, +5 from Enhancement bonuses, and a few more misc. modifiers aside, so yeah... triple digit bull rush modifiers.  Frenzied Berserkers can do it a lot easier a lot earlier.

Caelic

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2011, 07:02:10 PM »
Buffing the martial characters instead of yourself.  Seems like that was the way the game was supposed to be played instead of DMM Persisting Divine Power and proceeding to surpass the martial characters.


...except, of course, that the juiciest buffs are self only.  If they didn't want clerics to self-buff, they shouldn't have put Divine Power in the game to begin with.

ImperatorK

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2011, 07:13:15 PM »
I think those self-only strong buffs were supposed to be a "last resort" type of spell, to make a final stand in case the rest of the team goes down, or something. When you have a competent fighter or barbarian in the group you don't need to fight yourself, so you can take other, more useful actions in combat instead. Like healing... <.<
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Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Caelic

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2011, 07:15:10 PM »
I think those self-only strong buffs were supposed to be a "last resort" type of spell, to make a final stand in case the rest of the team goes down, or something. When you have a competent fighter or barbarian in the group you don't need to fight yourself, so you can take other, more useful actions in combat instead. Like healing... <.<


Don't forget turning undead, which is of course the most useful thing you could ever do with turn attempts--which naturally keeps people from using them for other things. ;)

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2011, 07:15:19 PM »
I think those self-only strong buffs were supposed to be a "last resort" type of spell, to make a final stand in case the rest of the team goes down, or something. When you have a competent fighter or barbarian in the group you don't need to fight yourself, so you can take other, more useful actions in combat instead. Like healing... <.<
:lmao You said healing in combat was useful! Thanks I needed a good laugh.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2011, 07:19:03 PM »
Well yeah, that's why I said it. You think I was serious? :rollseyes I'm not that of a noob.
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"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

kurashu

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2011, 07:41:09 PM »
Don't forget turning undead, which is of course the most useful thing you could ever do with turn attempts--which naturally keeps people from using them for other things. ;)

Which is why we hoard them into an Olympic sized pool, right?

oslecamo

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2011, 07:50:23 PM »
Buffing the martial characters instead of yourself.  Seems like that was the way the game was supposed to be played instead of DMM Persisting Divine Power and proceeding to surpass the martial characters.


...except, of course, that the juiciest buffs are self only.  If they didn't want clerics to self-buff, they shouldn't have put Divine Power in the game to begin with.

I believe it's more the fact Wotc seems unable to get any kind of middle ground. Back in 2e the biggest complain about the cleric was that it had to play healbot and couldn't really do much more, so they went out of the wazoo to give the cleric extra stuff in 3rd edition, while of course allowing him to turn back into heal bot mode after combat.

Another example, the druid animal companions.

3.0-Is a completely normal animal, you need to go out there and catch one yourself, and it doesn't level up with you. Also dinossaurs aren't animals so you can't get them. And if you treat it badly(aka trap-springer), it will just leave you.

Result-people all complain that the animal companion suckorz.

3.5-Gets buffs that increase with your druid level, and you can replace them with a free ritual, dinossaurs are now animals, and it seems like every other splatbook has a super animal that can be taken as a low level animal companion.

Result-roftl my animal companion can take care of that ecounter by itself!


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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2011, 08:40:24 PM »
Buffing the martial characters instead of yourself.  Seems like that was the way the game was supposed to be played instead of DMM Persisting Divine Power and proceeding to surpass the martial characters.
Just changing the bonus type from enhancement to something else would help.

As for the self-only buffs, try making them touch/other creature only. See how it goes.
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amazingtrapsmith

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2011, 01:38:34 AM »
Buffing the martial characters instead of yourself.  Seems like that was the way the game was supposed to be played instead of DMM Persisting Divine Power and proceeding to surpass the martial characters.
Just changing the bonus type from enhancement to something else would help.

As for the self-only buffs, try making them touch/other creature only. See how it goes.
It's never really been a problem in my group since no one really bothers building optimized spellcasters.  But yeah, I've considered this in case it ever comes up.

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2011, 07:31:51 PM »
Back to the weapons - most exotic weapons are a complete waste of space. There are simple weapons better than a lot of exotic ones, and most martial weapons are better as well.

Spend a feat to actively make yourself worse? Bleh.

Also, crossbows suck, barring op-fu with aptitude weapon shenanigans and a few other optimized builds.
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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2011, 07:52:59 PM »
Back to the weapons - most exotic weapons are a complete waste of space. There are simple weapons better than a lot of exotic ones, and most martial weapons are better as well.

Spend a feat to actively make yourself worse? Bleh.

Also, crossbows suck, barring op-fu with aptitude weapon shenanigans and a few other optimized builds.
Well, Hand Crossbows are the only projectile weapon worth TWFing, and I've made builds prepared to do that on occasion (although I may not have ever gotten to the point where it was practical to do so).

Light crossbows, on the other hand, are good for getting maximum effectiveness with minimum effort.  If I'm making a high-Intelligence Rogue to pump skills or multiclass into Wizard later, then in the early levels I use Light Crossbows because I'm typically dumping Strength, making Shortbows strictly inferior.  Later on, I probably don't use any weapons.

Great Crossbows are interesting because their base die and threat range are both huge.  You just need an auto-loading enhancement on them to make them usable.

Heavy crossbows and ALL repeaters, on the other hand, are absolute trash, I agree.

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2011, 08:46:49 PM »
Light crossbows, on the other hand, are good for getting maximum effectiveness with minimum effort.  If I'm making a high-Intelligence Rogue to pump skills or multiclass into Wizard later, then in the early levels I use Light Crossbows because I'm typically dumping Strength, making Shortbows strictly inferior.  Later on, I probably don't use any weapons.

Great Crossbows are interesting because their base die and threat range are both huge.  You just need an auto-loading enhancement on them to make them usable.

+1 to that. Crossbow weapons are great for those who want a solid ranged weapon with minimum class investment, which is kinda what they're suposed to be. Even the heavy crossbow boasts the biggest range in all core weapons, whic is good for stuff like commoner volleys.

JaronK

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2011, 09:32:09 PM »
Except that volley fire ignores proficiency and can't crit, so Greatbows are much better for it (faster firing speed, solid range, decent damage).  Light Crossbows with Gnomish Crossbow Sites are decent for militia forces, but other than that...without aptitude tricks I just don't see crossbows being all that useful.

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2011, 11:11:20 PM »
No TWFing sling master? :P

Agreed that the heavy and repeating xbows suck

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2011, 02:12:53 AM »
This is more a "Good Idea, Bad Execution"
The CR System.

Also, along the line of what mixter was saying: Non-casting melee classes. Don't work in the core book.
and get a little better with each subsequent book.
However... If you take a level 10 party of fighters, and take 2 CR 9 Earth Elementals, and have them engage in melee. Its bad for the fighters. Really, even if you take 4 cr 7 Earth elementals.

Anybody? How many books were published before you could make that workable?

  There isn't a party of 10 level melee dudes that invade and defeat an aboleths (cr7) lair without MAJOR optimization.
I don't have too too much problem with casters being able to do everything, I have a problem with the melee classes not doing what they're supposed to do without 1. Playing as barbie (magic item barbies!) 2. Being somekind of freakshow. 3. Halving to delve for something workable.

I guess in the in they gave up trying to fix it, and made the tome of battle instead. I... I can respect that. They should have given the melee "The Tome" style feats instead for my 2 coppers.
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