Author Topic: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution  (Read 35299 times)

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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2011, 10:27:46 PM »
I'm gonna echo the hate for D&D's magic system as well as the love for Shadowrun's.

Magic is still pretty much stronger in most ways, and it's also much closer to the blaster-style. There is no "teleport" in Shadowrun, most of the higher magic is completely absent (although that's a setting choice, it shouldn't be considered when comparing systems).

However, the stronger the spell mage is throwing, the higher chance they have of hurting themselves. You can also just SHOOT the fucking mage and kill his ass. He doesn't get to hang out on miles of immunities and defenses. Every spell he sustains (buffs) cost him casting power unless he makes specific design choices to be buffer. If he DID spend effort becoming a buffer, his offense is weaker. They have the choice of casting certain spells from a different plane, which makes them pretty much immune to mundanes. However their body is lying helpless somewhere and every spell they cast broadcasts their presence to other mages.

Again, they still end up stronger than everyone else, but they're much better controlled than D&D mages and I actually enjoy playing Shadowrun magic because they flipped it in Shadowrun. In D&D they're you have to make magic characters carefully with the most bookkeeping and such, in Shadowrun they're the easiest to make and take the least bookkeeping.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #161 on: September 23, 2011, 10:28:02 PM »
There probbably is a system by which magic could be made balance by essentially saying "Spells simply dont' work sometimes" especially not against "These guys" (a type of monster, that is popular), in the way melee doesn't work against swarms, or sneak attack vs undead.
Freaking Magic doesn't work against or around "magical beasts" or "abberations" would be interesting at least.
Honestly though, I think someting like all magics having an X percent fail chance failure might be better, overall.
Also... there are some things that magic just shouldn't be able to do. Period. Ever. I can deal wih polymorphing... sure whatever as long as the fighters fight just as well or better, you can have the utility, thats what magic is for in someways.
Creating your own demi-plane, and really planeshifting from home, now that I think about it, teleporting via scrying... its all just too unlimited in my book.
I wonder is there as system that gets this near to correct....
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oslecamo

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #162 on: September 23, 2011, 10:45:40 PM »
However, the stronger the spell mage is throwing, the higher chance they have of hurting themselves. You can also just SHOOT the fucking mage and kill his ass. He doesn't get to hang out on miles of immunities and defenses. Every spell he sustains (buffs) cost him casting power unless he makes specific design choices to be buffer. If he DID spend effort becoming a buffer, his offense is weaker. They have the choice of casting certain spells from a different plane, which makes them pretty much immune to mundanes. However their body is lying helpless somewhere and every spell they cast broadcasts their presence to other mages.

Mages are balanced because... Other mages can hunt them? Really?

GURPS has magic amount to a skill check, and the higher your skill in a given spell, the less it costs to cast and maintain. If D&D was like that, things would change a lot, especilly since you put ranks in individual spells rather than all of magic, like with Spellcraft or whatnot. Critical Failures also always fail.

Wizards would stop being Knowledge monkeys, and would be scrounging for skill points rather than ways to break the game...

Sorcerors have limited spells known, and they can still pull out broken combos. Granted, giving virtual easy acess to all spells of a massive list was an horrible idea to start with.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #163 on: September 23, 2011, 11:33:00 PM »
I was under the impression people hate GURPs for being an overly complicated M&M game with a serious tone and less check with your DM for balance messages.

Nice to know some people hate it for the inability to become a spellcaster in favor of obtaining a handful super powers instead.
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4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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X-Codes

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #164 on: September 23, 2011, 11:35:58 PM »
I was under the impression people hate GURPs for being an overly complicated M&M game with a serious tone and less check with your DM for balance messages.
The overcomplication angle is where I was kinda going with that.  I'm not really all that interested in learning Magic Missile 5 times to get that 5th missile.

Bauglir

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #165 on: September 24, 2011, 12:12:54 AM »
@Midnight
I'm not entirely sure where you're going with that "magic always has a chance to fail". My ideal design balance is that against appropriate-CR enemies, you should never have a turn where you go, "Goddamn it, I guess I was useless this turn" unless the dice just fucking hate you (can't really do much about that if you include any kind of failure mechanic). So I guess what I'm saying is, if you're proposing a system whereby you have an X% chance to fail casting a spell, and the specifics of what your target is and what spell you're casting don't really matter outside of a few special cases, I'm not a fan. If it's just something to balance your game's AC equivalent by making more powerful foes harder to affect with magic (just as they are harder to affect with swords), well that's alright then.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

SneeR

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #166 on: September 24, 2011, 01:59:33 AM »
@Midnight
I'm not entirely sure where you're going with that "magic always has a chance to fail". My ideal design balance is that against appropriate-CR enemies, you should never have a turn where you go, "Goddamn it, I guess I was useless this turn" unless the dice just fucking hate you (can't really do much about that if you include any kind of failure mechanic). So I guess what I'm saying is, if you're proposing a system whereby you have an X% chance to fail casting a spell, and the specifics of what your target is and what spell you're casting don't really matter outside of a few special cases, I'm not a fan. If it's just something to balance your game's AC equivalent by making more powerful foes harder to affect with magic (just as they are harder to affect with swords), well that's alright then.

What about a system where people have spell resistance just like they have AC. If you can't overcome their spell resistance, it doesn't work, with any spell. You roll one caster level check against every person who would be effected by any spell to overcome all of their spell resistance.

That makes spellcasters really end up on the same plane as martialists, at least initially. Sure, they're broken as all get-out once they overcome SR, but even their contingencies might fail because they fail to overcome their own SR.
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[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
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zook1shoe

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #167 on: September 24, 2011, 02:37:26 AM »
Quote
Let's simplify this: EVERYTHING involving Magic.


Good idea, horrible execution

I'm not sure the way magic works is even a good idea, conceptually.

I agree, with you overall but its a bit too ultimate. "Wiggle my finger, and it happens" is kinda a no muss no muss
mechanic. Even WW had paradox etc. . .
It'd have been more reasonable in someways if all magic had a fail chance, no matter what.
So basically everthing that made it's save, just ignored the magic.
And All spells should have a save. This applies to supernatural and spell likes as well.


Maybe apply the corruption cost from vile spells to all spells? Or use Call of Cthulhu insanity?

Littha

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #168 on: September 24, 2011, 02:53:10 AM »
There probbably is a system by which magic could be made balance by essentially saying "Spells simply dont' work sometimes" especially not against "These guys" (a type of monster, that is popular), in the way melee doesn't work against swarms, or sneak attack vs undead.

We can call them golems...

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #169 on: September 24, 2011, 03:43:53 AM »
magic still fucks golems. See Silent Image, Grease, Etc...

JaronK

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #170 on: September 24, 2011, 03:50:32 AM »
Shadowrun actually has the same issue.  It's really hard for a spell to target a drone or vehicle, but you can easily take out the driver of a vehicle or use illusions to indirectly screw over a drone.  It's really hard to make magic not work on something when indirect options exist...

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #171 on: September 24, 2011, 03:59:31 AM »
magic still fucks golems. See Silent Image, Grease, Etc...
Grease is especially nice when fucking things...over. Yeah, fucking things over.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #172 on: September 24, 2011, 04:18:35 AM »
Quote
We can call them golems...
... is that meant to be funny? Or... do you really not know what you're talking about, there?
I'm sorry I get trolled alot on here so forgive me if I'm unsure. The above posts cover it, but there
are magic spells that deal with golems just as effectively or moreso than anything else.

 
Quote
If it's just something to balance your game's AC equivalent by making more powerful foes harder to affect with magic (just as they are harder to affect with swords), well that's alright then.
Honestly I was just spit-balling there. Its the spells that obviate the saving throw that irk me.
I'm of a mind to think that every (non-buff) spell has a saving throw, and if the save is made "the target" is completely immune to your effect. Summoned Monsters? Ignored. Falling rocks? Dodged effortlessly. Acid fog? Note if the save is made.
It the effects that say "Fuck you: No save" and the ones that say "Save or die: and even if you don't die, you're fucked" that I think are the most annoying. So thats just a simple thuoght, not well thought out or balanced or anything. Again I'm just spit balling with stuff here honstely.
Magic is too ultimate, and its so bad that I'm almost to the point of "4th edition might have it right" at least about somethings.
Then again the incantations where first in the UA so that might be the book that got it right for "big things"; Big things can be researched but performed by anybody.
I think planeshifting should be done only at places "where the walls are thin..." or whatever sometimes. In many ways its not that I hate magic its just I'm wishing the magic was more balanced without sucking terribly.
I don't know what the answer is.

So yeah... magic: See title of thread.
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #173 on: September 24, 2011, 04:29:25 AM »
magic still fucks golems. See Silent Image, Grease, Etc...
Grease is especially nice when fucking things...over. Yeah, fucking things over.
Yeah, grease definitely makes it easier to beat a flesh colossus

Littha

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #174 on: September 24, 2011, 04:39:46 AM »
My point was that golems are supposed to be immune to magic... its just that the morons at wotc couldn't write anything the way they were supposed to.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #175 on: September 24, 2011, 04:43:52 AM »
It's funny that a 1st level spell can soundly spank epic flesh beasts.

At least the 3.X version of the spell is measured in feet; 2nd edition, it was measured in inches, which isn't nearly large enough for my purposes...
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 04:46:27 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]


Maat_Mons

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #177 on: September 24, 2011, 05:44:15 AM »
magic still fucks golems. See Silent Image, Grease, Etc...
Grease is especially nice when fucking things...over. Yeah, fucking things over.
Yeah, grease definitely makes it easier to beat a flesh colossus
Oh no it doesn't. The flesh collossus still has the old good "true" magic immunity, that stops all spells and supernatural abilities, not just those that allow SR.
Blast, it would have been so much better if the masturbation joke was technically accurate. 

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #178 on: September 24, 2011, 05:59:50 AM »
You guys do realize that Grease isn't targeting the golem, but is, instead, targeting what it's standing on, right?

It's like saying that Disintegrate won't work even if you destroy the floor it's standing on.

Thus it should work, much as if you'd Dominated a barbarian to molest it, or Metamorphosis'd into a 12-headed hydra and gnawed on it for awhile.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 06:03:00 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #179 on: September 24, 2011, 06:07:46 AM »
You guys do realize that Grease isn't targeting the golem, but is, instead, targeting what it's standing on, right?
The ability doesn't say anything about targeting. Thus it still works against area effects.

It's like saying that Disintegrate won't work even if you destroy the floor it's standing on.

Thus it should work.

An hole in the ground is a mundane effect.

Super grease that mundanes can't replicate whitout magic items, can't be removed except by dispel magic, and disappears after some seconds when the duration ends, is definetely a magic effect, and thus blocked by the collossus magic immunity.

EDIT: As for dominate and metamorphosis, they're simply not area effects.