Author Topic: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution  (Read 35297 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #120 on: September 21, 2011, 08:44:42 PM »
Living constructs are cool and well-implemented.  Stock Constructs are not.  I mean, the DM can use them as a monster just like he can use whatever else, but there's nothing special about Golems that really offsets their exorbitant creation price.  What's more, because of the way HP and DR work in 3.5e, that golem with DR 15/adamanite is still half as durable as a Barbarian whose level matches up with the CR of said Golem, and the damage output isn't even comparable (Golems can't take Power Attack!).
Exactly. It's a shame they didn't create more Living Constructs.

Oh, I see. Yes. Are Warforged the only type of living construct?
Besides the Soulfused Construct template in MoI, yes.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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heroicraptor

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #121 on: September 21, 2011, 08:53:32 PM »
Living constructs are cool and well-implemented.  Stock Constructs are not.  I mean, the DM can use them as a monster just like he can use whatever else, but there's nothing special about Golems that really offsets their exorbitant creation price.  What's more, because of the way HP and DR work in 3.5e, that golem with DR 15/adamanite is still half as durable as a Barbarian whose level matches up with the CR of said Golem, and the damage output isn't even comparable (Golems can't take Power Attack!).
Exactly. It's a shame they didn't create more Living Constructs.

Oh, I see. Yes. Are Warforged the only type of living construct?
Besides the Soulfused Construct template in MoI, yes.

And Incarnate Construct in Savage Species.

snakeman830

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2011, 08:58:06 PM »
And Incarnate Construct in Savage Species.
no.  That changes type to Humanoid or Giant, depending on the size.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2011, 09:03:01 PM »
Yeah I just like the metal men.

Playing a warforged is extra-wonderful, because their fluff is not only easy to play (It's extremely flexible) but it also keeps a lot of nasty shit from happening to them if the DM considers how YOU are made of metal. WHO will the creatures - that eat flesh - target? The fleshy guys! Not that metal dude, he looks completely unappetizing. It's especially wonderful in situations where everyone else is getting mummy rot and poisoned while you're sitting there giggling. I recently had the luxurious experience of ending my rage as a warforged. They're just so nice! And despite how all their optional immunities come with annoying costs, having those optional immunities is fantastic! I built a warforged character who was supposed to solo Ravenloft, and when he got to Strahd he just pinned the vampire to a wall and started grinding (a la Dungeon Crasher. Being non-magical wasn't a goal when I as creating the character, but by accident he did end up being a mundane mutilator of undead).

There are other constructs with intelligence scores who had good roleplay potential (I'm very partial to the Force Golem in MMV), but X-Codes and Sinfire Titan summed up my complaints.
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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #124 on: September 22, 2011, 12:11:32 AM »
Living constructs are cool and well-implemented.  Stock Constructs are not.  I mean, the DM can use them as a monster just like he can use whatever else, but there's nothing special about Golems that really offsets their exorbitant creation price.  What's more, because of the way HP and DR work in 3.5e, that golem with DR 15/adamanite is still half as durable as a Barbarian whose level matches up with the CR of said Golem, and the damage output isn't even comparable (Golems can't take Power Attack!).
Exactly. It's a shame they didn't create more Living Constructs.

Oh, I see. Yes. Are Warforged the only type of living construct?
Besides the Soulfused Construct template in MoI, yes.

And Mercurials in MM5. Which are a CR16 IIRC.


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veekie

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #125 on: September 22, 2011, 06:15:48 AM »
The fundamental problem with the whole construct business was no Con score.
Con is basically structural integrity, and how tough a given thing is, so theres really no excuse for anything, including objects(what do you think Hardness basically is?), not to have it. They're supposed to be tough and the best way to do that is to BE tough.

EDIT: Undead too, they're kinda flimsy, but its less of an issue because all the ones people like to play have ways to get Cha to hp or the like.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 06:22:50 AM by veekie »
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snakeman830

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2011, 01:00:58 PM »
Constitution also represents metabolism, which constructs do not have.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

SneeR

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2011, 03:11:27 PM »
The fundamental problem with the whole construct business was no Con score.
Con is basically structural integrity, and how tough a given thing is, so theres really no excuse for anything, including objects(what do you think Hardness basically is?), not to have it. They're supposed to be tough and the best way to do that is to BE tough.

EDIT: Undead too, they're kinda flimsy, but its less of an issue because all the ones people like to play have ways to get Cha to hp or the like.

And having a CON score opens the option of being affected by CON damage, which should not affect objects in the same way it affects people.
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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2011, 03:15:59 PM »
The fundamental problem with the whole construct business was no Con score.
Con is basically structural integrity, and how tough a given thing is, so theres really no excuse for anything, including objects(what do you think Hardness basically is?), not to have it. They're supposed to be tough and the best way to do that is to BE tough.

EDIT: Undead too, they're kinda flimsy, but its less of an issue because all the ones people like to play have ways to get Cha to hp or the like.

And having a CON score opens the option of being affected by CON damage, which should not affect objects in the same way it affects people.
So give them an immunity to it... Don't get rid of their Con score entirely... I agree, it was a stupid design decision. Fluff-wise, it sounds cool (they don't have a metabolism). Mechanically, it sucks.
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zook1shoe

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2011, 03:52:23 PM »
How is that not Strength?

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #130 on: September 22, 2011, 05:01:01 PM »
All kinds of things that use fire, especially the pyromancer seem awesome in theory, but then you realize that everything except White Dragons naturally bitch-slaps fire into submission  :facepalm Let's face it, which one of us hasn't thought about burning the world to the complete cinders at some point in our playing experience  :evillaugh
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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #132 on: September 22, 2011, 06:10:24 PM »
Constitution also represents metabolism, which constructs do not have.
This is the reasoning behind my houserule ability score in my sig.

EDIT: Along with the Construct type.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 06:13:58 PM by X-Codes »

Nunkuruji

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #133 on: September 22, 2011, 06:21:38 PM »
A lot of class/PrCs that have small limited-use self-buffs, or other utility.
For instance, Sacred Fist's Sacred Flames. Standard action to add some fire damage to attacks.
If you get the jump, and can pre-buff, ok, fine.
It often isn't really worth a standard action in-combat, and should be a swift action for quality of life.
Same way Battle Blessing simply makes a paladin much more fun to play in lower tier play.

veekie

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #134 on: September 22, 2011, 07:14:41 PM »
The fundamental problem with the whole construct business was no Con score.
Con is basically structural integrity, and how tough a given thing is, so theres really no excuse for anything, including objects(what do you think Hardness basically is?), not to have it. They're supposed to be tough and the best way to do that is to BE tough.

EDIT: Undead too, they're kinda flimsy, but its less of an issue because all the ones people like to play have ways to get Cha to hp or the like.

And having a CON score opens the option of being affected by CON damage, which should not affect objects in the same way it affects people.
So give them an immunity to it... Don't get rid of their Con score entirely... I agree, it was a stupid design decision. Fluff-wise, it sounds cool (they don't have a metabolism). Mechanically, it sucks.
They already do have an immunity to it in their typing...
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2011, 10:30:51 PM »
Constructs not having a con score is one of the main reasons Green Star Adept sucks so much (along with 3/4 BAB, 1/2 casting progression, and turning you into a space dust junkie). Going from having a con score for the first 14 levels of your career to suddenly losing it and only getting a handful of hps (especially if you're small or medium sized like most PCs are) and you only get some of the benefits of being a construct and all of the drawbacks. It's even stupider considering warforged have a con score and even get a +2 bonus to it while getting most of the benefits of being a construct.

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #136 on: September 22, 2011, 10:33:19 PM »
An amusing thought.  If GSA turned you into a living construct instead, how much better off would the class be?  What about the (likely not RAI) interpretation that you get +15 CL and 5 levels for spells known?
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #137 on: September 22, 2011, 11:16:29 PM »
An amusing thought.  If GSA turned you into a living construct instead, how much better off would the class be?

It would go from really sucking to just sucking. Give the GSA full BAB and 8/10 spellcasting progression and it becomes playable.

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2011, 02:22:59 AM »
An amusing thought.  If GSA turned you into a living construct instead, how much better off would the class be?

It would go from really sucking to just sucking. Give the GSA full BAB and 8/10 spellcasting progression and it becomes playable.

I'd use it if it were 10/10 casting

veekie

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Re: Cool Abilities That Aren't Worth It -OR- Good Idea, Bad Execution
« Reply #139 on: September 23, 2011, 03:17:48 AM »
An amusing thought.  If GSA turned you into a living construct instead, how much better off would the class be?

It would go from really sucking to just sucking. Give the GSA full BAB and 8/10 spellcasting progression and it becomes playable.

I'd use it if it were 10/10 casting
You'd use anything if it was 10/10 casting.
8/10 is under tradeoffs, you become tougher, at the cost of some casting ability. True the trade isn't worth it for the most part, but thats more because Spells > all.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."