Author Topic: If I were a sick wizard...  (Read 1646 times)

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Drammor

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If I were a sick wizard...
« on: September 08, 2011, 07:53:38 AM »
Could I change the physical shape of a living monster into some kind of weapon, equip it with a ring of sustenance, and wield it against my enemies to defeat the same kinds of damage reduction as the monster normally can?

When I say its physical shape, I don't think I mean using Polymorph Whatever. I mean just sculpting and reshaping its still-living flesh, removing the parts that don't serve the purpose I want it to have, and fusing together its bones and joints so it doesn't bend in ways I don't want it to -- so that I can make the monster into an effective weapon. Like an axe, a dagger, a rapier or a scythe. But still a... kobold, phase wasp, kruthik or arrowhawk.

Do you know what I mean?

weenog

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 08:30:43 AM »
No.  Creatures that overcome damage reduction overcome damage reduction with their natural weapons or (in some cases) any weapons they wield.  The unfortunate creature you describe is not wielding weapons, nor is it making any attacks with its natural weapons.  Your sick wizard who wants to resort to vivisection to steal creatures' abilities to overcome damage reduction would be better off working his way into the illithid savant class and eating the brain of the victim creature.
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Drammor

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 08:52:39 AM »
So... you cannot make a creature harm itself by making it punch itself with its own slam attack?

There's no Stop Hitting Yourself in D&D?

Edit: Or... does it depend on how you make it hit itself?

SneeR

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 09:35:20 AM »
That spell is called Black Karma Curse from the PHB2. A failed save leads to the creature attacking itself with its most damaging wielded or natural weapon.
Unfortunately, they don't need to take an action to do it, but still a nice spell.
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weenog

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 01:46:01 PM »
Sounds like you're trying to depend on RAW and ignore RAW as it suits you.

Those creatures that naturally overcome damage reduction do so in specific ways.  If they're not inflicting the damage in those ways, they don't get the benefit of naturally overcoming damage reduction.  It's pretty simple.

If you can find creatures that overcome damage when wielded as improvised weapons by other creatures (possibly after being mutilated), go nuts with it.  But you can't just pick any creature that overcomes a damage reduction you like, warp it, and overcome that damage reduction yourself.  Not within the rules, anyway.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 01:50:29 PM by weenog »
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Prime32

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 02:00:05 PM »
So... you cannot make a creature harm itself by making it punch itself with its own slam attack?

There's no Stop Hitting Yourself in D&D?

Edit: Or... does it depend on how you make it hit itself?
Quote from: Grapple Rules
Use Opponent’s Weapon
If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a -4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action).

You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action.
I'd allow it. "Only the monster's own weapons can pierce its skin, so we must trick it into attacking itself" is practically a cliche. (see the robot from The Incredibles for an example)

As for making an actual weapon out of them, craft an intelligent adamantine weapon with the normal rules and say you transformed a creature that can pierce DR/adamantine.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 02:05:20 PM by Prime32 »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 07:26:52 PM »
Doesn't the "its attacks beat its own DR" only apply to things that have DR/magic, anyway? I was just looking into this the other day, and that was all I could manage to dig up. I'd love it if it worked for all creatures with DR, though, as my mineral warrior dwarf would be able to punch golems to death. :D
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 07:46:40 PM »
flavortext wise, I'd allow it.  RAW, I don't think it works.
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Slaughterhouserock

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 08:58:44 PM »
Doesn't the "its attacks beat its own DR" only apply to things that have DR/magic, anyway? I was just looking into this the other day, and that was all I could manage to dig up. I'd love it if it worked for all creatures with DR, though, as my mineral warrior dwarf would be able to punch golems to death. :D

As stated in the SRD, it works with DR/Magic, DR/Epic, and DR/Alignment.  No such luck with the various metals, unfortunately.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 09:10:21 PM »
Doesn't the "its attacks beat its own DR" only apply to things that have DR/magic, anyway? I was just looking into this the other day, and that was all I could manage to dig up. I'd love it if it worked for all creatures with DR, though, as my mineral warrior dwarf would be able to punch golems to death. :D

As stated in the SRD, it works with DR/Magic, DR/Epic, and DR/Alignment.  No such luck with the various metals, unfortunately.
It doesn't actually work for alignment, either. Things with DR X/lawful (for example) tend to have the opposite alignment subtype (chaotic). So they wouldn't actually be able to beat their own DR.

I'd missed that epic works like that, but then again... epic basically doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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Slaughterhouserock

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 09:17:53 PM »
It doesn't actually work for alignment, either. Things with DR X/lawful (for example) tend to have the opposite alignment subtype (chaotic). So they wouldn't actually be able to beat their own DR.

I'd missed that epic works like that, but then again... epic basically doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned...

Good point, didn't think of that.
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EjoThims

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 02:01:01 AM »
As long as the creature was sculpted in such a way that it's teeth (for bites) or claws (for claw) etc. was the part of the weapon doing damage, it should be fine.

Though I know of no way, by RaW, to actually warp a creature in such a way.

Drammor

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2011, 02:13:04 AM »
As long as the creature was sculpted in such a way that it's teeth (for bites) or claws (for claw) etc. was the part of the weapon doing damage, it should be fine.

Though I know of no way, by RaW, to actually warp a creature in such a way.

Well, that's definitely the kind of forward thinking I appreciate. I was actually wondering if there was a spell or some kind of effect that would allow such a thing, though.

However, it seems that no matter how evil we were told the Book of Vile Darkness and Heroes or Horror were, no one ever thought of using mutilated, still-living creatures in the shape of weapons as weapons. Sad day.

Hey! :D Here's an idea. We should totally have a contest to see who can create the best 10-level prestige class that does the sort of horrible, demented things I've described.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2011, 05:26:07 AM »
Flesh to Stone + Stone Shape + Stone to Flesh

Just make sure to have a femur sticking out of its bum. Need a handle? Get a grip.

Oh, and level drain your victim into a wight for negative levels.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 05:36:06 AM by Lycanthromancer »
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2011, 05:52:10 AM »
Flesh to Stone + Stone Shape + Stone to Flesh
I've always wanted to use that in a game... I think it neatly explains a lot of otherwise ridiculous monsters, like owlbears for example... Bored wizard + those 3 spells = bizzarro world
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A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
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Rejakor

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Re: If I were a sick wizard...
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 06:34:46 AM »
I also like the idea that magic use slowly drives you insane.  Like taking a lot of LSD.


That said, the easiest way to do something like this would be to train the creature as a monk.

However, this kind of thing clearly wasn't thought about in RAW, so as a GM i'd houserule the shit out of it.  By which I mean I would allow and encourage the shit out of it because there is not enough of this sort of thing.