Author Topic: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)  (Read 2883 times)

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patha787

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Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« on: September 07, 2011, 05:22:51 AM »
The campaign I'd been preparing for has been changed to gestalt rules, much to my relief (I have a build I can use). Thanks very much to those who helped me with build suggestions prior to this change, but I'm afraid your ideas won't see use. I apologize for starting a new thread on a similar topic so quickly, but figured it best to start afresh - moderators/admins may freely lock the other thread as it is no longer relevant.

That said, I've been in discussion with the other members of our group and I've been asked to act as the go-between/middle man mining shiny gold nuggets of CharOp knowledge from the great minds of the forums. In other words, please help me optimize our party.

Feel free to post opinions/advice/suggestions/tips etc. for any or all of the characters mentioned.

First off, about the Campaign:
- It's gestalt.
- The DM is lenient, open-minded and agreeable (I was able to talk him into allowing a Psionic version of Swiftblade), as well as very good at what he does.
- The setting is homebrew.
- All WotC sources (including Dragon and online material etc.) is available, including setting specific stuff which will be house ruled/re-fluffed. Third party MAY be allowed, but we'd rather not and I'd definitely have to check with the DM. Homebrew stuff is a no-go.
- We're planning our builds to 20th level.
- We're trying not to step on each other's toes/steal each other's thunder. By this I mean, while it's fine (and even makes some tactical sense) to be able to fill a fellow party member's generic role in a pinch (e.g. the tank, the Batman, etc) we're trying to avoid straight-up duplicating each other's classes/abilities if at all possible - we should all be unique little snowflakes.

Okay, here is what we have so far . . .

NG Human male Spell to Power Erudite 20//Factotum 8/Chameleon 2/Swiftblade 10
As played by me, and as kindly built by KellKheraptis and the suggestions of various posters in the past (thanks again).
I'm considering negotiating a Deathless (BoED) variant of the Necropolitan template, both for the immunities etc. and for "experience is a river". If I can pull this off, will it be worth it?

CG Strongheart Halfling male Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade 2/Master Thrower 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Whisper Knife 3//Beguiler 20
From what I understand, this is the ToB Build Compendium's Stormwhisper build with Beguiler taped onto the other side as a Gestalt character. The player also mentioned the possibility of instead going Wilderness variant Feat Rogue. Which is more optimized? I guess he'll be filling the ranged striker/glass cannon/skill monkey role.

LG Goliath Dragonborn male Knight 4/Crusader 16//???
This player hasn't made up his mind on the second side. He'll be the primary tank and battlefield lockdown/controller (using a ranseur) and he's almost settled on Dragonfire Adept 18 for ranged options/additional battlefield control options, but if he goes that route he's not sure what to take with the remaining two levels. He mentioned buying off the Goliath LA and taking Vassal of Bahamut for some special armor or something, although that seems a little sub-par.

LN Warforged male personality Artificer 20//???
Likewise, this player hasn't settled on their second side either. He'll be taking the delicious Warforged Artificer racial substitution levels. He wants to make the most of Int synergy if possible, and suggested perhaps going Warblade and making the character a Meleeficer. Is that a good choice? Straight Warblade 20?

NG Human female Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 10?//Archivist 20
The party's primary divine caster and buffer/booster. She's not 100% settled on Incantatrix and wants reassurance that this is the optimal choice. She's not going to be fulfilling the primary arcane caster/Batman/God role (which will be left to me), so she's considering specializing further and going Transmuter or even Focused Specialist: Transmuter.

As I said before, any and all input on any of these characters will be greatly appreciated by their players (including me). Thanks in advance to those who respond.

Finally, any general thoughts on party composition/synergy? I think we should have our bases covered and be quite formidable with a few tweaks here and there.

Endarire

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 07:24:15 AM »
Warforged: Warblade seems optimal for durability.

I question the Knight levels.  More Crusader, Cleric, or/and Ruby Knight Vindicator seems best.
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patha787

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 08:01:04 AM »
Warforged: Warblade seems optimal for durability.

I question the Knight levels.  More Crusader, Cleric, or/and Ruby Knight Vindicator seems best.

I believe it's for Test of Mettle to draw enemy attention/force them to attack him and Bulwark of Defense to make any square he threatens difficult terrain (for additional battlefield control), as he's the party tank/battlefield lockdown artist. Is this sub-optimal?

CantripN

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 10:03:04 AM »
Knight 3 for Bulwark of Defense and Step og the Wind (Stance) is a nice combo. +2 to Attack and +4 on STR/DEX checks for Bull Rush / Trip and resisting those, against anyone you threaten.
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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 10:04:47 AM »
For the crusader, you might consider a bard dip for song of the white raven and dragonfire inspiration, also Binder might be nice on the other side for cha synergy and generally more options(charger feats, scouting, summoning, or whatever you want that day) and Knight of the Sacred Seal if you go that route.

for the warforged artificer20//druid5, planar shepherd10, druid5   =  a motherfucking trasformer![spoiler][/spoiler]
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don't worry, he can still be a Meleeficer, you just need to make wilding clasps for the stuff you want to wear while wildshaped
There won't be much Int synergy, but wildshape allows you to focus on Int, Con, Wis.
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patha787

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 10:38:53 PM »
THE BATTLEFIELD CONTROLLER
I was going over the build with the player, and we realized Goliath offers nothing (aside from the racial substitution Barbarian level, which is really only to get large size, right?) that the Half-Minotaur template doesn't, and Half-Minotaur has many more (admittedly far too many) goodies for the same level adjustment. The DM will tone the ability modifiers down some, since Half-Minotaur currently has better ability adjustments than a full Minotaur; I believe he'll eliminate the additional size increase modifiers. The gore attack will also be handy for attacking anyone who is inside his extended reach. Because Half-Minotaur is a template, the player can also pick another medium-size race with nice bonuses to whatever scores would be best - Water Orc for more Str/Con? Or something to boost CHA/WIS? Feel free to recommend a base race.

The DM apparently has agreed to allow a simultaneous Knight/Barbarian gestalt level, stipulating that the character cannot rage as long as he is lawful and may never advance in Barbarian levels after 1st (irrelevant). Thus, the build he's contemplating is looking like Knight 4/Crusader 16//Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6/Ardent 2/War Mind 10/Ardent +2. Thoughts and opinions? Sounds quite cool, some sort of huge sized (thanks to expansion) Psionic Knight/Crusader with a massive extend reach polearm (ooh err) teleporting all over the show via dimension hop, charging things when he's not acting as an AoO tank/battlefield controller.

THE ARTIFICER - GONE, REPLACED BY BARDBLADE WAR CHANTER
One of us with the Leadership feat is going to have a Warforged Artificer cohort, so the guy who was playing the Artificer has decided to change his character completely, since the cohort can handle crafting duties.

He's changed his race to Dragonwrought Jungle Kobold and will be venerable, giving him ability adjustments of -4 Str, +2 Dex, +1 Int, +3 Wis and +3 Cha. With Dragontouched he'll also have access to Draconic Heritage, and Battle Dragon has been allowed (admittedly it fits the flavor of the build), so Dragonfire Inspiration will be adding sonic to damage. The build he told me is the following (what are your thoughts?), level by level:

Bard 1//Warblade 1
Bard 2//Warblade 2
Bard 3//Warblade 3
Bard 4//Warblade 4
War Chanter 1//Marshal 1
War Chanter 2//Marshal 2
War Chanter 3//Marshal 3
War Chanter 4//Marshal 4
War Chanter 5//Marshal 5
War Chanter 6//Marshal 6
War Chanter 7//Marshal 7
War Chanter 8//Marshal 8
War Chanter 9//Marshal 9
War Chanter 10//Swordsage 1
Warblade +1 (is this possible? it's on the opposite side from the original levels)//Swordsage 2

Then Virtuoso, Bard and/or Sublime Chord levels on the Bard side and 2 Paladin of Freedom levels and Warblade levels to finish off the other side.

In essence, he'll be based around Dragonfire Inspiration and CHA to everything - attacks (Snowflake War Dance), saves (Paladin), various skills/checks (Marshal), AC (Swordsage with Ascetic Mage) etc. He'd have Full BAB, 4d12+10d8+1d12+2d10+3d12+CON HD, 4 or 6 skill + Int skill points at all levels, a decent Initiator level and access to a decent selection of White Raven maneuvers plus all the CHA to everything goodies, the CHA auras of the Marshal etc, plus plenty of Bardic Music uses (War Chanter advances Bardic Music uses) to grant everyone ?d6 sonic damage. In addition, he gets (via War Chanter) the ability to use two Bardic songs simultaneously, which he'd be using on Dragonfire Inspiration and Inspire Legion (War Chanter capstone), which grants all allies within 60 feet who heard the song the highest BAB among them, which will always be Full BAB by virtue of him having full BAB. He loses out on a decent spellcasting progression but that's what our primary wizard/buffer party member is for. I think if it is legal as a build, it's pretty amazing for what it adds to the party (no wonder it's based on a build called Mr. Awesome). So what are everyone's thoughts, opinions (and corrections, if need be)?

THE PARTY WIZARD/BUFFER - UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Our party Wizard/War Weaver is looking at changing to Factotum 10/Chameleon 10? or something similar on the other side, using the Academic Priest feat to make the character SAD. This would grant extra actions, better passives (HD, BAB etc), Int to a bunch of stuff, various abilities and most importantly a whole bunch more arcane spells per day (up to 6th level) and still grant up to 6th level divine casting. Arcane spells are generally better buffs for putting into the War Weaver tapestry (and she'd have a heap more of them), and she could still probably Sanctum Spell heal into the tapestry, while retaining all the other divine spells she can fit into the tapestry. Of course, she'd have to ditch the PrC levels on the other side (excluding War Weaver, which is fine) and go straight Wizard. Worth it? Seems like it to me, but what are everyone's thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 10:44:38 PM by patha787 »

Rejakor

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 02:19:09 AM »
Rogue needs to be better at lower levels, also needs to be a nomad/erudite for movement/extra actions... could go arcane route for the simulacrum shuffle.  Beguiler seems like an odd choice for the offside anyway.

Why War Mind?  Check out the 'King of Pong' build and the later adaptation the 'War Master' for a few ideas on using War Hulk + Insane Reach to become a bowling ball of destruction, who, incidentally, locks everything down super hardcore.


Marshal is a bit 'meh' except for a one level dip to add cha mod to init, could stand to replace that with something else cha-synergy-ey.  Like battle dancer or whatever.  Go find the X stat to Y ability table.  It has shiny things.  Also, he needs less war chanty and more sublime chordey.  Lots of tasty all-day buffs that are personal/apply only to cha-monkies (sirine's grace).  Don't forget your spellblades!  Oh, and where's the frickin' swiftblade?


Incantatrix's 'add free metamagic' ability breaks the game in half.  If your wizard is okay with losing that, then there's nothing wrong with extra actions.

To put it like this;  Extra actions are always good.  Incantatrix is SO good, you don't ever need extra actions.

patha787

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 04:16:23 AM »
Thank you for your input, we appreciate it.

Quote
Rogue needs to be better at lower levels, also needs to be a nomad/erudite for movement/extra actions... could go arcane route for the simulacrum shuffle.  Beguiler seems like an odd choice for the offside anyway.

The game will likely start at 11th level - is the build severely underpowered at this point? You are right with regards to Beguiler and I've passed on your recommendation - the player will look at Nomad and perhaps Elocater or other mobility-enhancing skirmish type things. As always, if you (or anyone else) have any specific recommendations that would synergize well/enhance this character please let me know.

Quote
Why War Mind?  Check out the 'King of Pong' build and the later adaptation the 'War Master' for a few ideas on using War Hulk + Insane Reach to become a bowling ball of destruction, who, incidentally, locks everything down super hardcore.

Again, good recommendation - I initially recommended War Hulk levels to him but he wasn't initially keen; however, on checking out that build he's changed his mind. War Hulk's abilities render War Mind's Sweeping Strike obsolete.

His new build is currently Half-Minotaur Water Orc Knight 4/Crusader 16//Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6/War Hulk 10/4 free. He's still deciding what to do with the four free levels - again, recommendations are welcomed. Ardent with substituted mantle powers for Expansion (and later, dimension hop)? Any recommendations on the order? Also, will he need Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian 1 for pounce? From my understanding he'll mainly be AoOing/bull rushing/tripping and using the Mighty Swing (or whatever the capstone of War Hulk is) to attack everyone he threatens (which should be a lot).

Quote
Marshal is a bit 'meh' except for a one level dip to add cha mod to init, could stand to replace that with something else cha-synergy-ey.  Like battle dancer or whatever.  Go find the X stat to Y ability table.  It has shiny things.  Also, he needs less war chanty and more sublime chordey.  Lots of tasty all-day buffs that are personal/apply only to cha-monkies (sirine's grace).  Don't forget your spellblades!  Oh, and where's the frickin' swiftblade?

Agreed on Marshal, and I've passed the info on. He doesn't want to lose War Chanter since at the capstone level it grants any ally listening to/understanding his bardic music the highest BAB of the group (which will always be Full BAB); coupled with Dragonfire Inspiration it's pretty potent, especially if we have cohorts, summons, etc. who can understand the song too. Sublime Chord is very nice but we have a dedicated wizard who is devoting herself to casting buffs on our party, so the Bard should be less concerned with that. Some levels in Swiftblade, however, would advance his casting a little while offering a bunch of enhancements to his ability to skirmish/melee.

His new build currently looks something like (level by level):
Bard 1//Warblade 1
Bard 2//Warblade 2
Bard 3//Warblade 3
Bard 4//Warblade 4
War Chanter 1//Marshal 1
War Chanter 2//Bard 5
War Chanter 3//Bard 6
War Chanter 4//Bard 7
War Chanter 5//Paladin of Freedom 1
War Chanter 6//Paladin of Freedom 2
War Chanter 7//Swordsage 1
War Chanter 8//Swordsage 2
War Chanter 9//Warblade 5
War Chanter 10//Warblade 6
Swiftblade 1//Warblade 7
Swiftblade 2//Warblade 8
Swiftblade 3//Warblade 9
Swiftblade 4//Warblade 10
Swiftblade 5//Warblade 11
Swiftblade 6//Warblade 12

to end up:
Bard 7/War Chanter 10/Swiftblade 6/Warblade 12/Marshal 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Swordsage 2

Thoughts? The passives (BAB and HD etc) don't seem to offset each other quite as well as the last build but overall it seems quite potent and good at what it does - using Charisma to Initiative, bardic music which will grant us a large bonus in sonic damage on melee attacks, giving us all Full BAB, White Raven maneuvers to enhance party combat further, all while being quite a competent melee skirmisher.

Quote
To put it like this;  Extra actions are always good.  Incantatrix is SO good, you don't ever need extra actions.

Our wizard is still making her mind up on this. If only there were a way for her to fit all her Chameleon levels, War Weaver levels and Incantatrix onto the same build, but unfortunately dual PrC gestalting would prevent this.

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 05:35:51 AM »
So, this is an overpowered campaign and there's a dude playing a gish CHA based caster venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, and they're NOT using Sorcerer?

I know he wants to be a Bard, but Sorcerers can be better Bards than Bards are thanks to Heartfire Fanner, from Dragon 314.

Maybe something like:

Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 3/ Heartfire Fanner 5/ Swiftblade 7/ XxXxX 1// YyYyY 8/ Warchanter 10/ zZzZz 2

Grab the 1st Dragonblooded Sorcerer sub. level, for the Free Draconic Heritage, Battle is THE choice (Sonic damage on Inspiration and Perform for Fanner).
Obviously, Dragonwrought and Draconic Reservoir.

I know it would really delay Warchanter on the other side, but his options would be wide open. Even if none of that appeals to him, make sure he knows that being a Dragon allows him to pick an archetype from Dragons of Eberron, pg. 30-31, which grant things like bonus fighter feats, Rage, Favored Enemies, access to other spell lists...

patha787

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 09:35:19 AM »
Thank you for the input - neither I nor he had heard of Heartfire Fanner before.

Sorcerer with Heartfire Fanner appears to be a better optimized choice, if it can be pulled off. Unfortunately, the build you suggested uses dual PrC gestalt advancement, which is illegal. I'm struggling to come up with one that includes all the appropriate levels at once - it looks like he may have to lose Swiftblade in order to pull this off. I thought I had a decent build but forgot it doesn't get Bardic music until after Heartfire Fanner, which screwed it all up. If it's not possible, Bard may remain the best way to go.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 12:46:27 PM »
For the Wizard player : an Incantatrix is fully capable of using the Erudite's action breaking powers via Chameleon Crafting making them exist as a spell in the Tome of Ancient Lore.  He/she would have no problems gaining extra actions without dipping/replacing and losing Incantatrix, and given that it's going to at least 20, the raw power of the Incantatrix plain makes it the optimal choice, rivaled only by -maybe- Shadowcraft Mage.  Have him/her look at my metamagic build on the Metamagic Thesis thread in the Handbooks section, and ask the DM about how they treat bloodlines.  Sanctum 9's in the tapestry plus the ability to arbitrarily make them last 48 hours minimum with a low end CL of 126 after GCF simply cannot be ignored.
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Re: Help Required Optimizing a Gestalt Party (Something for everyone)
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 06:53:39 PM »
I wasn't thinking, it was late when I posted. But, the good news is, while looking at the other players I realized that they all had enough BAB to serve them. Sure, the Wizard doesn't have the greatest BAB... But, he's a bloody Wizard, it's not like he'll be melee-ing it up, and if he's using something with an attack roll from range, chances are it's a touch attack, right?

From that I'd tell you that 5 extra levels of the class are a bit of a waste. Because after dual song, there isn't much left as a Warchanter, unless you'd really benefit from that capstone, which in my opinion, you wouldn't.

I propose:

Harmonious Knight Paladin of Freedom 4/ Warchanter 5/ Marshal 1/ ToB Classes 10 (I like Crusader for this) // Stalwart Dragonblooded(lvl 1) Sorcerer 9/ Swiftblade 10/ XxX 1

Dual Song is the capstone for me, and who needs actual BAB when you can Inspire Courage as well as you can?

Feats should include:

Dragonwrought
Draconic Reservoir
Draconic Heritage (Sorc. lvl. 1)
Weapon Focus (Sorc. lvl.1)
Dragonfire Inspiration
Song of the White Raven
Words of Creation
Dodge
Mobility
Elusive Target
Divine Might

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