Author Topic: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57  (Read 4167 times)

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Caelic

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Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« on: September 04, 2011, 04:32:16 PM »
...since I can't find any of the last 56 or so threads dedicated to the topic.

To start, I'm going to toss up Algid Enhancement, from Frostburn.  This is a 6th level cleric spell that grants a deflection bonus to AC, an enhancement bonus to attack rolls, 1d8 temporary hit points, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against fire.  Here's the good part: those bonuses scale with level, increasing by 1 for every 3 caster levels.  Here's the better part: there's no cap.  A 20th level caster is going to get a +7 deflection bonus to AC, 1d8+6 temporary HP, a +7 enhancement bonus to attack rolls, and a +8 bonus on saves against fire.  Combined with CL-boosting tricks (not that anyone on these boards ever uses CL-boosting tricks!) the bonuses can get obscene.

Here's the gravy: it lasts 24 hours, and it affects one creature PER LEVEL.  That's one HECK of a deal for a single 6th level buff spell.

Now, there is one catch: it only works on creatures with the cold subtype.  That's not such a big catch, though, given that there are many ways to get the cold subtype.  Mantle of the Icy Soul is also a 6th level cleric spell that does just that for an hour per level.  Extend it, and it'll last as long as Algid Enhancement right out of the box.  (It might do that anyway, if you're significantly boosting your CL.)

About the only thing that would make this better would be a cost-efficient way of granting a large number of creatures the Cold subtype all at once.  Any suggestions?


Ivory Knight

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2011, 04:55:28 PM »
A divine version of War Weaver, Chain Spell(maybe DMM: Chain Spell), permanent PAO the targets into something that does have the cold subtype.
If you use it on Undead, Beckon the Frozen might do the trick.
Isn't there a cheap template to make living creatures cold subtype?

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2011, 08:06:53 PM »
A divine version of War Weaver, Chain Spell(maybe DMM: Chain Spell), permanent PAO the targets into something that does have the cold subtype.
If you use it on Undead, Beckon the Frozen might do the trick.
Isn't there a cheap template to make living creatures cold subtype?
No but there is a spell that does it, it wouldn't help with PAO though even if it were a template.

FYI
Mantle Of The Icy Soul: Frostburn, costs 10,450gp to have a Druid cast it on you. Gives the [Cold] subtype permanently.
Mantle Of The Fiery Spirit: Sandstorm, costs 11,200gp to have a Druid cast it on you. Gives the [Fire] subtype permanently.
For 21,650gp you can buy immunity to Cold & Fire damage.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Lo77o

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2011, 09:08:23 PM »
A divine version of War Weaver, Chain Spell(maybe DMM: Chain Spell), permanent PAO the targets into something that does have the cold subtype.
If you use it on Undead, Beckon the Frozen might do the trick.
Isn't there a cheap template to make living creatures cold subtype?
No but there is a spell that does it, it wouldn't help with PAO though even if it were a template.

FYI
Mantle Of The Icy Soul: Frostburn, costs 10,450gp to have a Druid cast it on you. Gives the [Cold] subtype permanently.
Mantle Of The Fiery Spirit: Sandstorm, costs 11,200gp to have a Druid cast it on you. Gives the [Fire] subtype permanently.
For 21,650gp you can buy immunity to Cold & Fire damage.

Mantle Of The Icy Soul has been reprinted in SpC and is now a 1 hour / level buff. The good thing is it wont cost you xp to cast anymore.
"Home is where you can find a decent graveyard and strangers can disappear without awkward questions." - Braids, Cabal Minion

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 01:10:56 AM »
A divine version of War Weaver, Chain Spell(maybe DMM: Chain Spell), permanent PAO the targets into something that does have the cold subtype.
If you use it on Undead, Beckon the Frozen might do the trick.
Isn't there a cheap template to make living creatures cold subtype?
No but there is a spell that does it, it wouldn't help with PAO though even if it were a template.

FYI
Mantle Of The Icy Soul: Frostburn, costs 10,450gp to have a Druid cast it on you. Gives the [Cold] subtype permanently.
Mantle Of The Fiery Spirit: Sandstorm, costs 11,200gp to have a Druid cast it on you. Gives the [Fire] subtype permanently.
For 21,650gp you can buy immunity to Cold & Fire damage.

Mantle Of The Icy Soul has been reprinted in SpC and is now a 1 hour / level buff. The good thing is it wont cost you xp to cast anymore.
WotC can be a bunch of tards at times. I could understand balance issues but it's Cold the most commonly ignored type in the game and you can still Necropoliton up. They crapped all over Frostburn mirror to Sandstorm and even screwed up their online article =http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030124afound here all for what? Removing the XP costs and give it a duration? Lame.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 01:37:12 AM »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Tr011

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 03:20:34 AM »
The mantles are nice.
Just found something I find personally interesting, but it's by far not as powerful as these mantles...
Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide has a spell (sor/wiz 3) that turns you into an undead for 1 min/lvl. That means you are immune to crits and stuff, but also it means you can make some interesting Alter Selfs. But I don't know what happens after it expires (since Alter Self would still be on).
Oh, also it means you can be turned. Interesting since the spell has medium cast range and is save-or-die if you got a cleric at your party.


//edit: also, in the same book is a spell called Third Eye (sor/wiz 5) that creates a third eye on your forehead for 1h/lvl. Third Eye + Blindfold of True Darkness = Profit (since this means you get blindsight 30ft, see invis 60ft, darkvision 60ft. and normal vision for 9k+lvl5 spell).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 03:28:38 AM by Tr011 »

JaronK

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 03:26:55 AM »
Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide has a spell (sor/wiz 3) that turns you into an undead for 1 min/lvl. That means you are immune to crits and stuff, but also it means you can make some interesting Alter Selfs. But I don't know what happens after it expires (since Alter Self would still be on).

The Alter Self would remain.  In D&D, spells and templates and such check for legality when they are applied, not after.  By the same principle you can cast Harden on an object (legal target for the spell), then cast Permanent Shrink Item (also legal target), then use Haunt Shift to make the object a creature.  Both Harden and Shrink Item stay on the target, even though it's now a creature (which is not a legal target for either spell).

But yes, that spell would be a brutal indefinite mind control trick to use on people with a Rebuking Cleric, assuming it doesn't have some specific clause preventing this.  Just combine it with Holy or Unholy arrows to reduce their HD before you Rebuke.

JaronK

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 05:28:08 AM »
Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide has a spell (sor/wiz 3) that turns you into an undead for 1 min/lvl. That means you are immune to crits and stuff, but also it means you can make some interesting Alter Selfs. But I don't know what happens after it expires (since Alter Self would still be on).
Oh, also it means you can be turned. Interesting since the spell has medium cast range and is save-or-die if you got a cleric at your party.

Quote from: FAQ

Yes. A spell only checks to see if you are a legal target when it is cast. If you become an illegal target later (such as via the polymorph spell), the spell remains in effect.
After you became Undead, yes, any spell that affects undead hits you. Any spell you had running before becoming undead, regardless if it don't work on undead, continues to work. Obviously a +X bonus to a none-ability still remains -- though :p

//edit: also, in the same book is a spell called Third Eye (sor/wiz 5) that creates a third eye on your forehead for 1h/lvl. Third Eye + Blindfold of True Darkness = Profit (since this means you get blindsight 30ft, see invis 60ft, darkvision 60ft. and normal vision for 9k+lvl5 spell).
The Blindfold never says how many eyes to cover up so you can? Um... No.

Also the MiC's Blindfold of True Darkness says, "you cannot use vision in any way while wearing the blindfold." IE even a Ring of X-Ray Vision to see though the blindfold cannot be used to regain sight.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Tr011

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 05:50:21 AM »
Quote
You cannot use vision in any way while wearing the blindfold.
I think that part is clear, but now:
Quote
You create a third eye in the center of your forehead which you can use to see. This eye is not blinded if you are blinded by magic or damage to your normal eyes.

I think (at least by RAI) you can use this eye since it's other than your regular eyes.

JaronK

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2011, 06:00:33 AM »
The blindfold explicitly says you can't use any vision... and the third eye isn't blinded by magic or damage.  It's blinded by cloth in front of it.

JaronK

Rejakor

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2011, 06:03:23 AM »
If you had an eye, say, on your hand, how does the blindfold use 'cloth' to stop you using the vision of that eye?

If it's wrapped around your face.

That doesn't really make 'the sense'.  Sounds like 'magic' to me.

snakeman830

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2011, 06:06:38 AM »
Wall of Eyes (BoVD, Sorc/Wiz 7) is a spell that really doesn't get mentioned enough.  While fulfilling its purpose as an actual barrier, it isn't the best (its hit points are kinda low), it is shapeable, alive (so can arguably be healed by spells), Instantaneous (AMF?  Dispelling?  hah!), and anyone touching it has to succeed on a Will save or be paralyzed for a minute as the wall absorbs them into its mass.  On top of that, no matter where you are afterwards, you can take a standard action and view things from the wall's perspective (that is, you can see an area as though you were standing where the wall is).  You can even do this on other planes.

As an added benefit, it's creepy as fuck.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2011, 06:53:34 AM »
If you had an eye, say, on your hand, how does the blindfold use 'cloth' to stop you using the vision of that eye?

If it's wrapped around your face.

That doesn't really make 'the sense'.  Sounds like 'magic' to me.
Sense? What kind of a point is that? Lords of Madness notes Beholders can wear three pairs of eye lenses or goggles over the central eye and two eye stocks. Yes, six lenses over three eyes, make sense of that for me. Srsly, how do you get a pair of human shaped glasses to fit over what is basically a single tentacle in a way that doesn't damage them (no folding them over) and gets the eye to see though both lenses at once? And covers your entire face?


Maybe it looks like this

Rules of the Face Body Slot never call out these types of items cover a certain amount of eyes. The items them selves may, but the blindfold doesn't so there is no excuse there. At best this is a rules don't tell me I can't argument, at worst it is more of wearing your pants backwards gives bonuses claim.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2011, 07:12:15 AM »
I don't have MiC here so I don't have the actual text of the blindfold.  However, it does have a physical shape.  And there are items like the robe of eyes.

So, my argument is that if it says 'you cannot use any form of sight while' blah blah blah.  It either means that it magically stops you seeing while you wear the blindfold, or if you CAN see while wearing the blindfold, the blindfold doesn't work.

If it's the first, then the specific spell overrides the general item, because it says it does.  'even if... magic or blindness..' etc.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 07:18:24 AM »
I don't have MiC here so I don't have the actual text of the blindfold.  However, it does have a physical shape.  And there are items like the robe of eyes.

So, my argument is that if it says 'you cannot use any form of sight while' blah blah blah.  It either means that it magically stops you seeing while you wear the blindfold, or if you CAN see while wearing the blindfold, the blindfold doesn't work.

If it's the first, then the specific spell overrides the general item, because it says it does.  'even if... magic or blindness..' etc.
It says "you cannot use vision in any way while wearing the blindfold." Which I already brought up and being arguing against because you have another eye to cover. The rules of the item can very be read as the aforementioned Beholder can done the blindfold over a single eye stock cannot see anything out of his other ten eyes. You trade the visionary sense for a sixth sense called Blindsight.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2011, 07:24:07 AM »
Okay, so via some magical means it is taking away/trading/whatever your sight.  You are not seeing, because of magic.  You're blindsensing instead, but right now we don't care about that.  We care that a specific spell says that if your sight has been taken away by magic, it gives you the ability to see.  Gives you.  Doesn't 'give back'.  Grants you another form of sight.

If you turned into a beholder, I agree, you still wouldn't be able to see if you had a blindfold of true darkness(how would that affect Gaze attacks?).  But, this spell doesn't just.. turn you into a beholder, or grow a new eye.  It explicitly gives you vision if your vision has been magically taken away.  Or if you got blinded mundanely.  It specifically grants you that.

So my argument is that you would get to see, as the blindfold magically takes it away, and then the spell magically gives you 'new' vision.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 07:34:32 AM »
So my argument is that you would get to see, as the blindfold magically takes it away, and then the spell magically gives you 'new' vision.
That's just it. The blindfold doesn't blind Eye 1 and Eye 2. "you cannot use vision in any way while wearing the blindfold.", no matter how many damn eyes you have, no matter how many you grow later, you can't use vision AT ALL.

Take other forms of examples.
Applying +6 to a none ability doesn't do anything.
If you cast Magic Mouth sound is still suppressed by Silence.
You don't get to mentally control a creature with Dominate Monster under the effects of Protection from Evil.

You don't get to reprioritize things like that and bypass them. Same with losing vision, growing a new eye isn't going to change things.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Rejakor

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Re: Underappreciated Spells, Take 57
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 07:46:35 AM »
Well, my argument wasn't that growing a new eye would fix it, and that's not what the spell does.  It grants you vision even if you specifically had a specific spell that took away your vision even if you had 500,000 eyes cast on you.  The spell that took away your vision would have to say 'and nothing can change this' to stop Third Eye giving you back vision.


However, I misread that quote you quoted initially.  The way it's worded, 'cannot', doesn't allow the spell to function while you wear the blindfold.  So, you're right.  The wording essentially has a 'and nothing can change this' built into it without ever saying so.