Should I ban Wraithstrike?

[Endarire]

I've DMed a game 1-21 and near the end gave the group weapons of continual wraithstrike.  I felt the need to compensate by making very high touch ACs.

Wraithstrike for one round is fine.  Persistent or long-term wraithstrike is suspicious.  (I won't be making continual wraithstrike a nonepic weapon mod any time soon.)

[veekie]

Touch attacks, design wise, are aimed for characters with very low natural chances of hitting. This is very much more so when you put them on characters who can translate the massively raised accuracy directly to damage(via power attack). And if you're going to pump up touch ACs, it just screws over half BAB, Secondary Dex ray users, who won't hit because now they're competing with ACs that compete with full BAB Primary Str users

So...just drop it entirely.

[Solo]

I've DMed a game 1-21 and near the end gave the group weapons of continual wraithstrike.  I felt the need to compensate by making very high touch ACs.

Wraithstrike for one round is fine.  Persistent or long-term wraithstrike is suspicious.  (I won't be making continual wraithstrike a nonepic weapon mod any time soon.)

Keep Wraithstrike, get rid of the weapons.

[veekie]

True that, if you had to bang out a slot and action for it each time it's not so bad.

[Midnight_v]

I've DMed a game 1-21 and near the end gave the group weapons of continual wraithstrike.  I felt the need to compensate by making very high touch ACs.

Wraithstrike for one round is fine.  Persistent or long-term wraithstrike is suspicious.  (I won't be making continual wraithstrike a nonepic weapon mod any time soon.)

Keep Wraithstrike, get rid of the weapons.

+2
No the brilliant energy does all touch attacks but you see how Bad it is to compensate?
So maybe you could have a wraithstriking weapon at a +5 bonus or something?
Though ultimately, its probbably better to have it cost some kind of combat action.

I'm not even against persisting it as long as you're not using nightsticks i.e. its the ONLY thing you'll be persisting, (that is to say, Dmm persist sans nightsticks really isn't all that broke cause it costs you something, and you generally should only get 1 spell persisted perday in my limited experience)

[veekie]

+5 would be approximately right value I think. It's effectively Vorpal except it works on everything.

[Midnight_v]

+5 would be approximately right value I think. It's effectively Vorpal except it works on everything.

Come to think of it... don't Ac's get pretty damn ridiculous? It just like damn, If you're not shocktrooping
Power Attacking really looses some of its umph, doesn't it? I'm not saying a 38 or even a 40 is hard to hit
at 20 but you're going to need some extradamage from somewhere if "stabbing Cr20" to death is your vocation.
Maybe I'm off base here...? 

[veekie]

Depends, I hadn't actually encountered much while GMing that the party had any real difficulty hitting, even if you take away the bardic music(as long as you have at least the Bless/Haste/Insert Buff Here up).

I figure for the most part the ACs have an expectation of several buffs running at least. Wraithstrike winds up being just too huge a buff, since most monsters have like touch ACs of 10-14.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ban Wraithstrike entirely.  It's inherently broken no matter how it's used.

[EjoThims]

Wraithstrike is no more broken than True Strike.

That said, continuous items of either are silly.

[Necrosnoop110]

Wraithstrike is no more broken than True Strike.

That said, continuous items of either are silly.

+1

[zugschef]

Wraithstrike is no more broken than True Strike.

what about the standard action versus swift action casting time?

[EjoThims]

Wraithstrike is no more broken than True Strike.

what about the standard action versus swift action casting time?

That and the 1 round duration are balanced by it's higher spell level. It's more powerful because it's supposed to be. That doesn't make it any more broken.

It also has a somatic component; meaning that, despite the picture, TWF with Wraithstrike would require additional investment and using it while grappling is much more difficult.

[oslecamo]

That and the 1 round duration are balanced by it's higher spell level. It's more powerful because it's supposed to be. That doesn't make it any more broken.

It makes, because the fair diference between a standard and swift action are 4 spell levels (aka quicken metamagic).

Not to mention you can use wraithstrike with your full attack, and then your attacks of oportunity. True strike is only good for one blow.

Seriously, most gish builds have wraithstrike as an automatic option. But true strike is at best used as ocasional support.

It also has a somatic component; meaning that, despite the picture, TWF with Wraithstrike would require additional investment and using it while grappling is much more difficult.

Who cares about grapple? If you're using wraithstrike you want to slice the enemy in pieces, not grapple them. If the enemy is trying to grapple you, there's so many anti-grapple tricks out there that it isn't even funny. If you have wraithstrike, you surely have some anti-grapple trick.

[EjoThims]

They are also different spells with different affects.

You have to be at very high levels before even the slow tough enemies tend to consistently have a 20 point difference in their touch AC versus their normal.

Both, because of their unique affects, are ridiculous as continuous use items. But that fact doesn't make either of them broken.

You are comparing apples and oranges, while I am saying that neither of them are meat.

[oslecamo]

They are also different spells with different affects.

Irrelevant here, because they fulfill the same job of helping you hit stuff. Except wraithstrike does it much more better for a much smaller cost.

You have to be at very high levels before even the slow tough enemies tend to consistently have a 20 point difference in their touch AC versus their normal.

Doesn't matter because +20 to hit is overkill as soon as you have +9 to hit and your oponent has touch AC 10.

Both, because of their unique affects, are ridiculous as continuous use items. But that fact doesn't make either of them broken.

An item of continous true strike would royally suck. Your next single attack gets +20 to hit, then it never does anything anymore.

You are comparing apples and oranges, while I am saying that neither of them are meat.

Your atempts at ridiculous extrapolations will not avail you here. Wraithstrike is widely used and an auto-choice for any gish. True strike is neither. There's no flesh or fruit here, just gaming facts.

[Littha]

Its generally an ok spell provided its limited to gishes.
Wizard/Fighter/Eldrich knight even with wraithstrike is still going to be worse than a strait wizard or even an optimised melee character because of the strain on their feats.

[Midnight_v]

Its generally an ok spell provided its limited to gishes.
Wizard/Fighter/Eldrich knight even with wraithstrike is still going to be worse than a strait wizard or even an optimised melee character because of the strain on their feats.

I'm thinking I agree with you here. Though you can make better gishes than that, it still makes sense that they should be using spells to make sure they hit stuff just as good or better than the Weapon Focus chain boys.
They "generally" lack the ability to take 10(or 11) on attacks so the whole thing they do is buffing.
I wouldn't strip them of the best buffs available across the board I mean whats the next best thing? It can't be true strike? and polymorph is better cause it does so much more than just help you hit things.

Saying that something is an "Auto-include" for any X build isn't really that negative a mark.
 
  I don't like this argument...
Its kinda like, yeah so what? So is power attack for Str based builds, so is improved natural attack for Natural attack builds "Monks,Totemists, psywars...oh my" Arcane Strike is for duskblades. Point being pretty much every archtype has something thats a "auto-choice" and thats not a bad thing, it makes sense, for them to take whatever fits the concept mechanically the best.

 So no, you shouldn't BAN wraith strike, but it should be usable as a spell. As a spell it cost you something, persisted or no. Persistant wraithstrike should be a 9th level spell slot. . . thats not even all that good for a 9th level spell slot, and 2 feats.
As an item that the whole party has? No. Never.

[Unbeliever]

Along the lines of what Midnight_V said, I don't have much problem w/ it as a spell, or even a wand.  Losing a swift action every round is a non-trivial cost, especially as you go up levels and find more fun and exciting things to do w/ your swift and immediate actions.  I know all my melee builds have fun things to do w/ those, or at least I try to. 

That being said, I could see it being monotonous in a certain fashion, and touch ACs are one of those things that the game does not handle in a graceful fashion.  I wouldn't get too annoyed if a DM offered nerf of it, making it something like an untyped +10 bonus to hit or whatever.  I just don't use it nowadays b/c I'm tired of it, kind of like the same reason I rarely use DMM (Persist). 

[LordBlades]

Irrelevant here, because they fulfill the same job of helping you hit stuff. Except wraithstrike does it much more better for a much smaller cost.

'Better' is extremely relative. Hitting touch AC helps you hit in many cases, in others (stuff like lolmonks, incorporeal undead, smart dragons that use scintillating scales etc.) it does absolutely nothing. (Quickened) True Strike is flat +20 to hit and ignore concealment no matter what.