Author Topic: Help with low-power, low-magic world.  (Read 8189 times)

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Wilb

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Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« on: September 02, 2011, 11:50:20 AM »

Lo77o

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 12:19:56 PM »
All i can do is tell you what i would do if i was in your situation. With 2 of the players expecting to be carried, and no optimization at all, it would just be seen as "munchkin" if you made any character that outright worked as intended. I would most likely play a rogue, stick to the shadows, play it like a real craven thief. Every time someone in the group dies "should happen most sessions if there is combat" i would help my self to a good chunk of their gold. After a short while i would start investing in businesses or protection rackets or what ever, and try and make a mercantile side to my character. When i have a decent income, i would simply hire people to come along with me to protect me when i am adventuring.

If done correctly i would amass a minor fortune in a rather short time, while the rest of the group keeps getting killed. After a few sessions i figure the GM will notice that most of the players aren't having fun rerolling new chars every other session.
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Kajhera

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 12:22:46 PM »
They're starting with 10k gold. They have a small fortune.

Kajhera

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 12:40:48 PM »
Personally, as a druid.

I'd be an alchemist and take a venomous companion - dunno whether you could extract and process its venom but you might be able to. If you can't just pick whatever companion seems like it will be most protective. I've annoyed the heck out of my players with a swindlespitter and it might serve as a good ally. Craft (alchemy) allows me to craft such items as 10gp (market price) no-save-just-blind eggshell grenades from Oriental Adventures, or, possibly ossra oils from Serpent Kingdom, which I like just for the aesthetics as well as the influence on tactical situations. (How you came across a Yuan-Ti secret I don't know per se.) Bloodflower salve and healing salve can stand in as substitutes for cure potions if you find yourself hating preparing cure minor. Get yourself a house or a ship or a large land vehicle (depending on where you want to go) and an alchemist's lab, you can afford them. I don't know enough about strongholds to know what security measures you might want to put on it exactly.

Dragon Magazine ... I think it is 358 has varied mundane enhancements for armor that might be worth looking into for yourself pre-wildshape and your companion. Make sure your stuff's something-craft.

Alchemy is pretty amazing when your wealth is many orders of magnitude higher than your to-hit.  :eh
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 12:44:58 PM by Kajhera »

Wilb

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 12:52:53 PM »
Thx for the answers so far!

 Yes, basically we are starting with a small fortune and we can also get together to buy something big, if needed. There will be no "munchkin" cry if the character is built within those rules, because the DM is an able optimiser and will know that there's not too much power in a build (he is an avid Transmuter enthusiast) in that strict set. Through fluff we are all 2nd and 3rd sons of minor feudal nobles, and so we have acess to any mundane thing money can buy, such as henchmen (which will eat at our XP, so not that good), various specialists, and rare or expensive items, we are heading to the Italian Peninsula, I assume we are going to get some "teachers" to train us in basic stuff, and I'd like to know if setting a merchant caravan is a possibility as well, some advice in spending the starting gold would be a blessing. We get to keep any remaining gold, but in copper pieces, so it'll be a little dificult to conceal it personally.
 The paladin will get Catholic Church support, so expenses like food and places to sleep are obviated while we're there, but there's no such thing in the outside, guaranteed by our DM.
 Kajhera, really nice advice, but the Oriental Adventures stuff may only be avaiable in Asia (loooong distance), considering how meticulous our DM is, but I'll keep in mind should we go there. The Yuan-ti oil could be easier, we can go to Egypt, so that we'll be able to shove it down his throat convince him because of the anthopomorphic deities there, so from those to yuan-ti is just a small hop, i'll check it right now!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 12:55:31 PM by Wilb »

Unbeliever

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 01:05:55 PM »
I actually play in pseudo-historical setting pretty frequently, though we tend to add a lot of fantasy elements to them so as to not be restrictive like your DM is.  I'd be more worried about the railroading than anything else.

Can I ask a perhaps basic question?  Is your DM going to calibrate the difficulty of the encounters accordingly?  Your fellow players are bound to be weak, especially w/ their disregard for optimization, and the campaign has a large number of restrictive rules.  As a DM, I'd hesitate to run what I'd consider "normal" encounters against such a group. 

If that's the case, then, I'd not worry about being weak.  In fact, I'd probably shoot the DM an email and say that you're aiming for a level of optimization around the other players.  If that's not the case, then the DM is being quite a dick, but whatever.

If the goal is to make the most powerful character w/in these rules, then I'd agree w/ other posters that Druid, Cleric, or a stealth-oriented character (since the usual foils for stealth should be so rare and it will help you actually survive) are all good bets.  I'd probably go for the stealth just b/c it seems to fit the setting the most, and a minor noble who gets by on his wits and tries to avoid being killed, such as like his 4 older brothers have in various wars, could be an interesting concept.  The other option might be to take a reasonably weak concept, and trying to optimize it a bit b/c it won't be overshadowed in this game. 

I might also look into and just see how good you can get things w/ mundane items and equipment.  Like, I might play a master of hounds w/ a really big warhorse, for example (all of which is saying "druid" again, but a funky one at least) or something like that. 

Wilb

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 01:16:37 PM »
Thanks for the reply Unbeliever!

 Well, he will be adapting the encounters for the first two levels, of that I am sure, but then he will unleash normal encounters for our level. As for the fantasy elements, they will be present, the scenario will resemble the "points of light" setting of the thing Wotc tries to pass as D&D, with the supernatural encroaching the towns, but with the largest ones being safe. He also said that most of the money we get will be product of what we start so, besides killing a dragon or some other intelligent being, we need to go full Merchant on the money. He probably wants us to reach an equilibrium between equipment and "stuff to sell", but I believe there are other ways to get money, but I can't remember them, they'll just be a bit reduced in this scenario.

Edit: Druids and Clerics also fall on the rule of knowing only one spell per lvl with the DM choosing them, they do not have access to their full list.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 01:21:13 PM by Wilb »

jeffrie

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 01:46:54 PM »
whack. :banghead

I think i might go rogue. Maxed skills will seem like magic in this game, and the handful of d6 all day long will embarrass casters that only have one spell. Maybe a low/zero magic game would be a good time to whip out the old fighter dip for feats, weapon/armor and HP.

R1/ F1/ R1/ F1 R-all

OR, just make an intelligence based rogue. If no one in the world has a strength or magical melee bonus, you have little worry. Buy a mithral shirt (is that mundane enough?).

OR what about Factotum? that would kick butt in a low power world, and give fluff. You would get Inspiration, and still get your one spell a day. (heh) AND the skills/HP.  yeah
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kremti

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2011, 01:57:41 PM »
Factotum is out (PHB Only for classes).

I think Druids will be the my with this rule set.  2 of their Class features (Wildshape and Animal Companion) are mostly unaffected, and if he insists on Wildshaping into something the character has seen, Summon Nature's Ally will give you the decent selection for Wilshaping options to be studied.

For money making...being a shephard or something (Picking Riding Dog AC to go with?) probably works well in the beginning, and then start selling some weather-controlling spell casting (if you get them, that is) to wealthy cities who need rain or stop floods and such?

-K

Wilb

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2011, 02:03:48 PM »
Jeffrie,
   Factotum is not avaiable, at least for the time being, due to it's origin (dungeonscape), but nice catch on the rogue thing, enemies will mostly be as restricted as the PCs (except for spellcasting races such as dragons, some aberrations, fey and the like). Mithral is available, as its just a "mundane" metal, and we're minor nobles, having access to obscure and expensive stuff. (the DM had to be convinced to drop forcing everyone to start as lv1 aristocrats and change our classes at lvl 2)

Kremti,
   I believe that, in the case of druids, we'll be able to summon and wildshape only into what we've seen, as you said, but bears and wolves will be common, so it'll help a little.

I'd like to know your opinions on the spending of the 10K gold, if possible.

Thanks for your time and help.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2011, 02:13:17 PM »
Mythril shirt, Adamantine melee weapon (hack through anything!), Alchemy kits and items (just as good as magic in this case), If possible a superior mount (not likely but you could always try), Pack animals, Lots of ammo for ranged weapons, Trade goods.
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Kajhera

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 02:18:35 PM »
In the low-magic, mercantile-oriented campaign I am playing at the moment, the character with the most trade goods and good haggling skills quickly outpaces the character with the best guns in terms of wealth.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2011, 02:22:21 PM »
Diplomacy used to explicitly state that it could be used in price haggling, but now I guess that falls under "opposed negotiations" portion. I'd say ask the DM about that as it can quickly become a cash cow for you, beyond the normal reasons diplomacy is silly good.

edit: in the same train of though, Bard?? Good skills, some magic that would probably be useful, class features that seem thematic and beneficial for the group.

Note the adamantine weapon wasn't purely for combat it was intended to allow him to break any lock/wall/door/etc.. that hindered them. Basically the ultimate crowbar that happens to serve a good purpose in combat.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 02:25:01 PM by archangel.arcanis »
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

jeffrie

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 02:35:59 PM »
WHAT ABOUT BARDIC MUSIC? Has it been nerfed? If not you might want to go Bard instead? You get the one spell/level, bardic music and knowledge, and skills; though it is MAD for the Cha/Int/etc.

My guess is Facto would fit with this world. You should petition the DM if you're interested in the class.

But if he doesn't want to, an Int (14?) based Rogue human gets 11 points per level and (in this case) 40 for first. Over 80 at 5th, when your max is 8. In a SAD world where no one is above average no one else is going to be close. Jack of all trades feat will let you attempt most any skill.
Complete Adventurer has the Exemplar who gives extra skill abilities.

Yeah, skills will seem like all day magic in this game, especially at low, mid, and high levels. (heh)



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kremti

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2011, 02:43:35 PM »
There is already a bard in the group, and he might be avoiding not to step on the other player's foot...

Even if you go something like a Druid, there's no reason you can't work together with the social guys like bards.  As a group, maybe the bard is the face and does all the business, but the Druid can be the Operational person, overseeing the farm.  Or, if the druid end up with bunch of wind-based spells...why not buy a Ship?  Trade-route through the sea with the druid, and again, Bard makes the sale.  Or be a pirate...suppose Paladin might not like that idea.

If anything, after picking up the Adamantine weapon (I think that's a good idea), having large amount of cash loose, and wait til later on some sort of business opportunity popping up as a part of the campaign hook, and spending on it might be the wisest thing to do.

-K

Gavinfoxx

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2011, 02:53:24 PM »
If I wanted to do a low power, low-magic world using a D&D-like system, I would just play an E6 version of Codex Martialis, which focuses on the classes Aristocrat, Rogue, and Fighter as the main core, with LOTS of changes to the combat system... and it's plenty realistic too...
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Faithless tbe Wonder Boy

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2011, 02:54:58 PM »
You know, 10k in gold could buy a LOT of mules...

Honestly, I'd go for an animal trainer.  Druid is an obvious choice, but Barbarian could be fun.  Max out Handle Animal.  Buy a couple of stud horses and a lot of donkeys, and make your money selling/trading mules.  Bring five or six mules with you everywhere you go - they're crazy useful.  Multiple attacks, high hit points, and a great grapple check will make each mule potentially better than everyone else in your party, especially if you can get the bard to sing a little song.

Win the game with a combination of wealth and overwhelming every encounter with a stampede of mules.  Yeah, I know, there's no winning at D&D.  Except this sounds more like a lesson in economics and how crappy the world was pre-Renaissance than it does a game of D&D, so maybe there IS winning.  And maybe winning involves a lot of mules.

Wilb

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 02:55:20 PM »
Well, Archangel,
   There's already a bard in the party, and, considering there will be no ACFs nor dragonfire stuff, I think only one is enough, but thanks anyway! I believe Rogue has been shown to be best alternative, considering I'll not be able to get enough skill points, so now I need to focus on spending the gold. The adamantine weaponry will surely be useful in many circunstances, as well as the skills necessary to not get caught with it, so to improve it's usefulness in situations such as ye olde prison break.

   Kajhera, what skills do you think would be useful considering the limitations and the economics of the world at the time? Crafts, Professions, Knowledges? Appraise becomes indispensable or I am not getting it right? (the DM is crazy about medieval history)

   Jeffrie, as Kremti said, there's a bard in the party, but your rogue tips sure are good! Factotum may only be possible in a future Rebuilding of the character...

   Kremti, there's just one problem with this approach, we'll carry only copper pieces, as our gold was given to us by our "noble parents", coming from taxes to poor people. I believe that carrying more than fifty thousand coins is not going to be easy, nor discreet enough, even with mules, or such. So I need help securing a way to carry this with me, considering the adventure will start with us travelling to Italy. (consider every PC will carry what remains of the initial wealth with them, because they don't have a place to call theirs anymore. So there will be a LOT of coins to carry, as at least one of them will not spend a cent besides clothes.)

EDIT:

   Gavinfoxx, He's going to increase the amount of magic in the world as we gain levels, to help with consistency, and to give an excuse for us to explore the world (he said that the campaign would consistently nod at old european myths)

   Faithless, that could be a possibility, but I need to have a place large enough for them, because I won't be able to travel with such a horde in these times (he said that bandit attacks will be common in undefended caravans, so we need a fortified vehicle or something equivalent)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 03:15:09 PM by Wilb »

Hallack

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 03:09:02 PM »
Wow, I second Rogue or Druid.  I almost suggested Monk as an interesting (though not tough) option for rp hehe. 

Rogue skills + Sneak will give loads of options as a business person and some combat viability.

Druid will have a lot more (especially post lvl 5) combat and decent skills.  Druid is probably going to be THE best combat class option. 

I think Druid is your best choice from an optimization standpoint even if your assigned spells are not great.  Afterall you can always use the crap spells as Summons.

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kremti

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Re: Help with low-power, low-magic world.
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 03:09:49 PM »
Well, sounds like a chance to study up on Italy in this era then.  Find some objects that they might think valuable there, and be able to at least make some even trade, or possibly profit, but much more portable than copper pieces...

Is the Pope in Rome your time?  Maybe some sort of religious relics might be appropriate.

I think spices are great around this era...innit?

Maybe some sort of Ottoman Empire related stuff?  Crusades going on?

If you do that kind of study...your DM will appreciate it probably.

It's the nerd-DM-optimization skill.

-K