Author Topic: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures  (Read 5671 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Saeomon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • A real rules lawyer
Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« on: August 31, 2011, 04:46:26 PM »
Creatures of the Incorporeal subtype are a pain in the ass for most characters. Unless you're kitted out in the right way, you're going to suffer that 50% miss chance.

Fortunately, Psionics has quite a few different options available. But which options are best? This thread will explore that question.

Powers:

Concussion Blast
The first available option, and very straightforward: you manifest it, it does Force damage. Many call it the Magic Missile of Psionics.
Pros: Available as soon as level 3. Damage is guaranteed, except for creatures with Power Resistance.
Cons: Crappy augments. Low damage-to-PP ratio. It's blasting, so it's inefficient.

Astral Construct
High level ACs get access to Concussion Blast as a Menu C option.
Pros: Free blasting; you manifest it once, and it keeps on going.
Cons: Only available with 7th, 8th, or 9th level ACs, so most Psions won't be able to make use of it until 13th level. Shaper-specific power.

Telekinetic Maneuver
It's a Force effect, so it works.
Pros: Lasts for multiple rounds, so it's PP-efficient. Incorporeal creatures often come with nasty touch attacks, and this can keep them away.
Cons: The only guaranteed-to-work maneuver is Bull Rush, so you can't do actual DAMAGE with the power. To be effective, requires a teammate to coordinate with you (you Bull Rush, they swing at the thing with an AOO) or a damaging effect you can push the target into or through, such as an Energy Wall.

Telekinetic Sphere
An effective trap for any Incorporeal creature.
Pros: Stops 'em cold. Gives you the option of leaving instead of fighting.
Cons: Eventually it will get out. Doesn't do any actual damage.

Psychic Scimitar
The sword this power creates is Incorporeal, so it can affect Incorporeal creatures.
Pros: Lasts a long time. If you get multiple attacks, you can make multiple attacks with it.
Cons: If it gets destroyed before the power is up, your key ability score takes damage.

Amethyst Burst
Only available to those using Dragon Magic material. Does AoE Force damage.
Pros: Better damage-to-PP ratio than Concussion Blast. The fact that it's AoE makes it more PP-efficient.
Cons: Allows a save. Augments aren't very good. Close ranged AoE, making it hard to avoid hitting allies.

Gemstone Breath
Also Dragon Magic-only. One of the augments is a Force effect.
Pros: PP-efficient, as it works over multiple rounds. Adds up to good damage.
Cons: Allows saves. The Force effect augment isn't available until mid-to-high levels.

Dream Spirit
Found in Secrets of Sarlona. Creates an Incorporeal "creature."
Pros: Lasts for multiple rounds. Acts independently.
Cons: The book fails to include a full stat panel for the creature so, by RAW, the thing can't move. The damage is rather mediocre.

Feats:

Transdimensional Power
Lets powers that otherwise would be subject to Incorporeal creatures' 50% miss chance bypass that miss chance.
Pros: Can be tacked on to any direct damage power. By RAW, can be tacked on to any power, period.
Cons: Requires a feat, of which you get far fewer than you do powers. If you're not up against Incorporeal creatures, the feat is kinda useless.

Analysis:

The ability of high level Astral Constructs to dish out an augmented Concussion Blast once per round as a free action is the best way of dealing with Incorporeal creatures. Unfortunately, it takes a lot to get to the point where that is an available option. For some Psions, it never will be.

Gemstone Breath is a close second, but once again it is only a higher-level option.

So what's a nascent Psion to do? Here's where it gets fuzzy. Each option comes with its drawbacks. For example, Concussion Blast does lousy damage and takes up a power slot at a level where there are lots of other, highly-attractive powers available, while Transdimensional Power requires a precious feat.

This is, in fact, a gray area where I've been unable to make any solid conclusions. Right now I'm leaning toward Telekinetic Maneuver combined with an AoO-ing companion or an Energy Wall as the preferable method, but this is far from ideal.

Thus I turn this over to the Min/Max boards for input.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 04:49:39 PM »
Transdimensional Power is more useful than you think.  It's part of the Phased Radar Array trick, whereby you use Touchsite and Transdimensional Touchsight to basically never be snuck up on again.
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Saeomon

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
  • A real rules lawyer
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 05:01:47 PM »
Transdimensional Power does open up options, it's true. But they're still just options for dealing with a single threat type. At least that's the way it will be in most campaigns. So I'm not sold on it from an optimization standpoint.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 06:03:25 PM »
I do believe there's a type of mundane wood (don't know the source) that ignores the 50% incorporeal miss-chance. Use a Linked Power'd Psionic Minor Creation or Psionic Major Creation to make weapons out of it. Give several of them to the party's beatstick, your Metamorphosis'd psicrystal, or an astral construct.

Any direct-damage power that hits multiple times (such as Energy Missile or Energy Conversion) I believe requires rolling the miss-chance on each instance, so if you fire off a barrage, one or more is likely to hit (though the DM may disagree).

Don't forget that powers like Inertial Armor deflect incorporeal touch attacks, so that's a good defensive option.

And using Metamorphosis you can turn your psicrystal into a battle-tank with relative ease. Give it a necklace of natural attacks, a magic weapon, a fanged ring, a tooth of Leraje, Metaphysical Claw, or some other means of granting it a +1 or greater enhancement bonus.

A one-level dip into psywar and burning an Expanded Knowledge feat on Call Weaponry (for your psion list) can get you a fully-augmentable soulbound weapon that you can use to splatter your enemies with.

The ghostbreaker PrC from Hyperconscious is focused on undead, but it's the only full-BAB, full-manifesting PrC in existence, so you're more than breaking even, AND it has Effective Turning and a number of other goodies specifically for Undead.

Also, it's really easy to boost one's manifester level, so you can reach high-level options with low-level powers easily enough. I can nab 9th level astral constructs at or before level 10 if I want, though it's rather expensive pp-wise.

Also, how about options such as Shape Soulmeld, Martial Study, and so on? they're not psion-specific, but they still work. Once you hit level 8, use a Linked Power'd Psychic Reformation to pull in powers and feats specifically to take down whatever incorporeal nasties are annoying you (or earlier, with ML boosters).

As mentioned, you can use Transdimensional Power. Good for astral constructs, PsiCreation, Claws of the Beast, Metamorphosis, and anything else you can think of.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 06:05:50 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Drammor

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 171
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 06:12:58 PM »
Quote from: Ghostwalk

There's that, but I don't think anyone actually uses Ghostwalk.

weenog

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 06:16:32 PM »
Take transdimensional power to hold you over until you get something nicer like a high-powered astral construct or gemstone breath, then psychic reform it out to something more useful?  You've got a retrain option built right in, you might as well take advantage of it.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

kremti

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 06:28:19 PM »
Got access to Dragonimicon?  I think there are 2-3 dragons in there that has breath weapons with [Force] descriptors you can use if you go with Metamorphic Transfer + Metamorph...

-K

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 06:44:33 PM »
Oh, and if anyone can find the source for the wood, use Telekinetic Thrust to fire blocks at whatever's annoying you.

Also, Metamorphosis + Transdimensional Power + Hammer?

[edit] Ah! Serren wood from Book of Exalted Deeds has auto-ghost touch as a natural quality.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 06:53:06 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 08:04:24 PM »
Believe it or not, a dip for Divine Mind has an option.
One of the auras (none of which are worth memorizing)
gives Ghost Touch 1/time to every ally in the aura.
You have to regain psifocus to use it again.
Not bad, not good, just divine mind-ish.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 08:20:14 PM »
A minor overlook on Concussion Blast: While it's true that it's damage inefficient for the PP, Incorporeal Undead tend to have very low HP relative to their CR (incorporeality is such an obstacle that it tends to inflate CR).

Another interesting note, many Incorporeal Undead do not resist Cold, and they all have absolutely terrible Fortitude saves, so a Cold-based Energy Missile could easily be much more efficient than Concussion Blast, miss chance and Saving Throw for half damage be damned.

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 09:23:01 PM »
The mundane wood you're thinking of is probably Serrenwood from BoED.

Gavinfoxx

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 822
  • *Forkbark* Wauwau!
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 10:17:45 PM »
Yea, but Serrenwood is only for stuff that can be the strength of normal wood, not iron.  So you can make Bows and Crossbows and I guess Clubs and Quarterstaves and maybe Greatclubs out of it, but that's about it.
BG's other resident furry!

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 10:34:08 PM »
Yea, but Serrenwood is only for stuff that can be the strength of normal wood, not iron.  So you can make Bows and Crossbows and I guess Clubs and Quarterstaves and maybe Greatclubs out of it, but that's about it.
You can technically make a stabbing weapon out of wood.

Unless you stab your vampires with steaks. I imagine T-bones would work nicely on that.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 03:20:31 AM »
Crossbow bolts is the typical method.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 02:39:32 PM »
Serrenwood arrows, crossbow bolts, a quarterstaff, a pair of clubs, a pair of spiked light wooden shields, and a greatclub should be sufficient for most non-spellcaster archetypes to pull out instead of their normal weapons should they meet incorporeal creatures. The exception is a TWF rogue with Weapon Finesse, low strength, and lack of martial weapon proficiency, and they are still able to use a bow.

Spiked light wooden shields: The piercing-type wooden weapon.

kremti

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 03:04:29 PM »
Serrenwood arrows, crossbow bolts, a quarterstaff, a pair of clubs, a pair of spiked light wooden shields, and a greatclub should be sufficient for most non-spellcaster archetypes to pull out instead of their normal weapons should they meet incorporeal creatures. The exception is a TWF rogue with Weapon Finesse, low strength, and lack of martial weapon proficiency, and they are still able to use a bow.

Spiked light wooden shields: The piercing-type wooden weapon.

Well, Ghostblight out of Complete Adventurer is 100g and can just be applied to the weapons they use normally.  I think what we are thinking of here is how do "Psions" contribute...I suppose Minor/Major Creating Serrenwood bolts and Telekinetic Thrusting them would be a possibility, but that sound hardly a "optimized" choice...

I think Telekinetic Maneuver is probably "versatile enough to use in other situations, and decent against incorporal creatures (assuming the melee of the group carries some Ghostblight to put on their weapons...)", and don't have to wait until high-level.

-K

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 07:27:37 PM »
Serrenwood arrows, crossbow bolts, a quarterstaff, a pair of clubs, a pair of spiked light wooden shields, and a greatclub should be sufficient for most non-spellcaster archetypes to pull out instead of their normal weapons should they meet incorporeal creatures. The exception is a TWF rogue with Weapon Finesse, low strength, and lack of martial weapon proficiency, and they are still able to use a bow.

Spiked light wooden shields: The piercing-type wooden weapon.

Well, Ghostblight out of Complete Adventurer is 100g and can just be applied to the weapons they use normally.  I think what we are thinking of here is how do "Psions" contribute...I suppose Minor/Major Creating Serrenwood bolts and Telekinetic Thrusting them would be a possibility, but that sound hardly a "optimized" choice...

I think Telekinetic Maneuver is probably "versatile enough to use in other situations, and decent against incorporal creatures (assuming the melee of the group carries some Ghostblight to put on their weapons...)", and don't have to wait until high-level.

-K

Minor Creation is pleasantly first-level, incredibly versatile, costs you a whopping total of 1pp (and 1 minute unless you Linked Power it) and not a penny more, keeping you from having to spend >100gp every time you fight a treasureless shadow.  :) Try linking it to a humanoid Astral Construct power.

'Course I play shapers more often than any other sort of psion.

The damage from Telekinetic Thrust with wooden weapons may be relatively low compared to when you're flinging alchemical items, poisons, or even heavy swords, but it's nothing to sneeze at.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 07:29:28 PM by Kajhera »

kremti

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 12:10:59 PM »
Minor Creation is pleasantly first-level, incredibly versatile, costs you a whopping total of 1pp (and 1 minute unless you Linked Power it) and not a penny more, keeping you from having to spend >100gp every time you fight a treasureless shadow.  :) Try linking it to a humanoid Astral Construct power.

'Course I play shapers more often than any other sort of psion.

The damage from Telekinetic Thrust with wooden weapons may be relatively low compared to when you're flinging alchemical items, poisons, or even heavy swords, but it's nothing to sneeze at.
Ya, Psi Minor Creation is one of the choice pick since it can do many other things...am just not in love with TK-Thrust, making it two-power combo, which has inheritant Action-economy problem, along with "TK-Maneuver looks a bit more versatile than TK-Thrust in general" thing.

At lower levels where 100g is an issue, I bet it's easier to just make Serrenwood weapons for everyone to use, and you contribute that way.

-K

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 07:59:03 PM »
Minor Creation is pleasantly first-level, incredibly versatile, costs you a whopping total of 1pp (and 1 minute unless you Linked Power it) and not a penny more, keeping you from having to spend >100gp every time you fight a treasureless shadow.  :) Try linking it to a humanoid Astral Construct power.

'Course I play shapers more often than any other sort of psion.

The damage from Telekinetic Thrust with wooden weapons may be relatively low compared to when you're flinging alchemical items, poisons, or even heavy swords, but it's nothing to sneeze at.
Ya, Psi Minor Creation is one of the choice pick since it can do many other things...am just not in love with TK-Thrust, making it two-power combo, which has inheritant Action-economy problem, along with "TK-Maneuver looks a bit more versatile than TK-Thrust in general" thing.

At lower levels where 100g is an issue, I bet it's easier to just make Serrenwood weapons for everyone to use, and you contribute that way.

-K
You can make the PMC/TT combo work, but it does take chaining.

Round 1: Manifest a targeted power Linked with PMC Linked with Telekinetic Thrust.

Round 2: Kill.

Easy.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Best Way for a Psion to Deal With Incorporeal Creatures
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 08:08:19 PM »
Telekinetic Maneuver (Grapple) -> PMC, and then the party beats down the hopeless undead.