Author Topic: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.  (Read 1900 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« on: July 30, 2008, 07:09:02 AM »
Okay, so I'm sketching up a Level 11 Drow Rogue for a PbP game. This guy is going to use thrown daggers for the most part. This is what I've come up with so far:

Abilities:

Str: 13
Dex: 20
Con: 13
Int: 14
Wis: 13
Cha: 18

Skills: Stealth, Thievery, Athletics, Intimidate, Bluff, Acrobatics, Arcana
Feats: Backstabber, Arcane Initiate (Thunderwave), Far Throw, Nimble Blade, Quick Draw, Press the Advantage, Secret Stride

Powers:


[spoiler=At-will]Deft Strike, Sly Flourish[/spoiler]
 
[spoiler=Encounter]Positioning Strike, Bait and Switch, Sand in the Eyes, Critical Opportunity (D)[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Utility]Great Leap, Nimble Climb, Shadow Stride[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Daily]Blinding Barrage, Walking Wounded, Knockout[/spoiler]

Equipment:
+3 Vicious Dagger, +2 Lifedrinker Dagger, +3 Magic Leather Armor, +2 Wand of Jump (3.400 GP), Bag of Holding

The basic idea is to center around mobility and critical advantages here, with a side of face skills. That said, Rogues are really not my area of expertise in 4e, and I could probably use some help here. My two main problems are:

1) I tend to consider powers in a vaccuum rather than interacting with each other, which means I may be missing out on certain combos here.
2) I mostly based my selection around targetting different defenses and debuffing rather than pure damage, which I'm hoping will be supplied by Sneak Attack and other such things.
3) My equipment selection is probably lackluster at this point.

I appreciate critiques.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 08:34:27 AM »
Arcane Initiate is weak for this build.

If you rolled those scores then ok, otherwise you're *way* over 22 points.  Either way, all level-ups should go to Dexterity and Charisma (assuming Artful Dodger).

Both Positioning Strike and Bait and Switch are redundant IMO.  Change one of them into either Dazing Strike or Setup Strike.

Great Leap and Nimble Climb just make up for impatience.  Get Utility powers that do something you can't already do instead of compensating for times when you don't just dot your i's and cross your t's.  Quick Fingers, Tumble, Ignoble Escape, and Slippery Mind are all noteworthy powers.

DemonLord57

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • Email
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 11:19:28 AM »
If you rolled those scores then ok, otherwise you're *way* over 22 points.  Either way, all level-ups should go to Dexterity and Charisma (assuming Artful Dodger).
Actually, I think those are his level 11 stats. He's actually at 21 points, by my count.

12 Str
15 Dex (+2 racial)
12 Con
13 Int
12 Wis
13 Cha (+2 racial)
Then, +1 for Paragon, and all pumps go into Cha and Dex.
(2 Str + 7 Dex + 2 Con + 3 Int + 2 Wis + 3 Cha + 2 for making the 8 a 10 = 21)
I'll pretend you started with 1 higher in Con for comparisons.

Now, I think you distributed your stats poorly. Having a dump stat isn't a bad thing, especially since most stats aren't going to give you anything, really. I'd go with:
10 Str
16 Dex (+2 racial)
13 Con
8 Int
11 Wis
16 Cha (+2 racial)
which would give you level 11 stats of:

11 Str
21 Dex
14 Con
9 Int
12 Wis
21 Cha
Now you've got better Dex and much better Cha, at the cost of dumping Int, (who cares) 2 less Str, and (again, you shouldn't care) 1 less Wis. You get 1 more Dex and 3 more Cha for dumping Int and losing 2 Str. Let's look at your defenses. You'd have the same Ref, same Fort, and better Will. You also will improve your Ref and Will on the next stat pump. So, better or equal in every way. You also have the highest modifier you can get for two stats at the end game.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 11:25:11 AM by DemonLord57 »

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 07:08:48 PM »
Quote
Actually, I think those are his level 11 stats. He's actually at 21 points, by my count.

12 Str
15 Dex (+2 racial)
12 Con
13 Int
12 Wis
13 Cha (+2 racial)
Then, +1 for Paragon, and all pumps go into Cha and Dex.
(2 Str + 7 Dex + 2 Con + 3 Int + 2 Wis + 3 Cha + 2 for making the 8 a 10 = 21)
I'll pretend you started with 1 higher in Con for comparisons.

Now, I think you distributed your stats poorly. Having a dump stat isn't a bad thing, especially since most stats aren't going to give you anything, really. I'd go with:
10 Str
16 Dex (+2 racial)
13 Con
8 Int
11 Wis
16 Cha (+2 racial)
which would give you level 11 stats of:

11 Str
21 Dex
14 Con
9 Int
12 Wis
21 Cha
Now you've got better Dex and much better Cha, at the cost of dumping Int, (who cares) 2 less Str, and (again, you shouldn't care) 1 less Wis. You get 1 more Dex and 3 more Cha for dumping Int and losing 2 Str. Let's look at your defenses. You'd have the same Ref, same Fort, and better Will. You also will improve your Ref and Will on the next stat pump. So, better or equal in every way. You also have the highest modifier you can get for two stats at the end game.

Yes, I usually suck at stat distribution. However, there are a couple of reasons I took Str up to 13 and Int up to 13: namely, for grabbing Far Throw and Arcane Initiate. The reason for Far Throw is because I'm intending on using thrown daggers; the reason for Arcane Initiate is because I wanted to be able to use wands with this character so I could grab Wizard utility powers.

That said, I could accomplish roughly the same thing by taking Pact Initiate instead, which requires high Charisma (which I already have anyway).

Oh, and in case it wasn't clear, my Wis was originally my 8 stat.
Quote
Arcane Initiate is weak for this build.

If you rolled those scores then ok, otherwise you're *way* over 22 points.  Either way, all level-ups should go to Dexterity and Charisma (assuming Artful Dodger).

Both Positioning Strike and Bait and Switch are redundant IMO.  Change one of them into either Dazing Strike or Setup Strike.

Great Leap and Nimble Climb just make up for impatience.  Get Utility powers that do something you can't already do instead of compensating for times when you don't just dot your i's and cross your t's.  Quick Fingers, Tumble, Ignoble Escape, and Slippery Mind are all noteworthy powers.

I suppose I'll be changing Positioning Strike into Dazing Strike then. My main reason for selecting both was because both targeted Will, which as we know, is rarely a high defense for a lot of enemies, and AC tends to be a bit harder to hit every now and then.

As for the utilities, Great Leap becomes Tumble, but Nimble Climb stays that way: I'm expecting the campaign to take place in an urban setting, which means lots of rooftops. Lots of rooftops means I could use a means of climbing easily and often.

What about the rest of them? No comments on the dailies or the encounter powers already mentioned?
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Dan2

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Hong Kong
  • *
  • Posts: 1024
  • Wizicist
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 07:21:19 PM »

the reason for Arcane Initiate is because I wanted to be able to use wands with this character so I could grab Wizard utility powers.


You can't grab Wizard utility powers with a wand, nor can you grab wizard powers at all with Pact Initiate.

Wands can only hold Encounter Powers, and you can only use wands that have powers available to your class.

Squirrelloid

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 09:07:43 PM »

the reason for Arcane Initiate is because I wanted to be able to use wands with this character so I could grab Wizard utility powers.


You can't grab Wizard utility powers with a wand, nor can you grab wizard powers at all with Pact Initiate.

Wands can only hold Encounter Powers, and you can only use wands that have powers available to your class.

You, ah, might want to check the wand rules again.
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

Dan2

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Hong Kong
  • *
  • Posts: 1024
  • Wizicist
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2008, 09:10:24 PM »
Ah, my bad, so you can use warlock wands with a wizard multiclass...

I realize that there are some encounter utility powers, but I'm a fan of the daily ones...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 09:17:08 PM by Dan2 »

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 03:26:09 AM »
Quote
Ah, my bad, so you can use warlock wands with a wizard multiclass...

I realize that there are some encounter utility powers, but I'm a fan of the daily ones...

Indeed, the rules can get pretty confusing there. My understanding is that you can grab Encounter OR Utility powers but not dailies, but the wording on the rules puzzles me a bit.

Another strange thing are the wands with encounter powers (i.e. Wand powers you can use once per encounter). How do you work with creating different wands? I couldn't find specific rules anywhere...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Squirrelloid

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 12:07:55 PM »
Quote
Ah, my bad, so you can use warlock wands with a wizard multiclass...

I realize that there are some encounter utility powers, but I'm a fan of the daily ones...

Indeed, the rules can get pretty confusing there. My understanding is that you can grab Encounter OR Utility powers but not dailies, but the wording on the rules puzzles me a bit.

Another strange thing are the wands with encounter powers (i.e. Wand powers you can use once per encounter). How do you work with creating different wands? I couldn't find specific rules anywhere...


My read was that you could use any "Encounter Attack Power" or "Utility Power" in a wand, but that the wand always had it as a daily power.  (And the level of the wand is defined by the level of the power placed in it.)
The ignorant shall fall to the squirrels. -Chip 4:2

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 01:54:31 PM »
Actually, it says "encounter power."  It makes no mention of attack or utility at all.  The reasoning behind putting Burning Hands and Shield in a wand is the same: they're both encounter powers.

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 04:53:17 PM »
Quote
Actually, it says "encounter power."  It makes no mention of attack or utility at all.  The reasoning behind putting Burning Hands and Shield in a wand is the same: they're both encounter powers.

Yes, the attack/utility part is mentioned later in a little table relating wand power levels to the actual powers' levels.

That said, anything else that could use some 'oomph' in this build? I'm hoping to keep Far Throw if at all possible.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 11:45:28 PM »
Quote
Actually, it says "encounter power."  It makes no mention of attack or utility at all.  The reasoning behind putting Burning Hands and Shield in a wand is the same: they're both encounter powers.

Yes, the attack/utility part is mentioned later in a little table relating wand power levels to the actual powers' levels.

That said, anything else that could use some 'oomph' in this build? I'm hoping to keep Far Throw if at all possible.
That does not dis-qualify the fact that it must be an Encounter power.

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: I need a crash course in Rogue/Daggermasters.
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2008, 12:54:27 AM »
Quote
That does not dis-qualify the fact that it must be an Encounter power.

Never said it did. Besides, I'm not looking at any dailies to go with the wands.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!