Author Topic: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par  (Read 1772 times)

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Mister D

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Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« on: July 30, 2008, 06:55:58 AM »
What if there was an epic tier feat with prerequisite: full paragon multiclassing that gave the full benefit of a single class feature of the secondary class, like combat challenge or implement mastery, one for each class similarly to multiclass feats?
Would that make paragon multiclassing worthwhile or just be broken?

brislove

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 07:25:59 AM »
have paragon multi-classing give 1 class feature and 1 at-will attack power.

eg: a paragon multi-classed wizard gets implement mastery and an At-will. That seems like a fair trade.

Wizard: Implement Mastery.

Paragon MC cleric or warlord, give out healing word

Paragon Rogue, Sneak attack (obvs).

Warlock/ranger. Curse/Quarry

Fighter= Combat challenge

pally= Divine Challenge

That is what I would do to bring paragon multi-classing up to snuff. Basically you trade 3 paragon features for 1 primary class feature and an at-will power. Then you trade having more options in power choices, for having (usually) less powerful abilities as a whole.

So in answer to your original question, I think the feat is probably still underpowered, but a step in the right direction.

Banor

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 08:12:04 AM »
IMO, Squirelloid was pretty close to the best system you could get for Paragon Xclassing in his thread http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1131.0

You can't just give some feature (like Inspiring Word) without giving the Tactical Presence feature to a xclass Word (same for a Rogue)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:15:32 AM by Banor »

X-Codes

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 08:14:46 AM »
I think the best way to handle multiclassing is to make lots of little adjustments to each of the parts since they're all slightly underpowered.  A lot of this was inspired by the thread linked from Banor's post.

1) The basic multiclass feats (Warrior of the Wild for example) are unchanged, save the skills they train.  If you are already trained in a skill (A Paladin taking Initiate of the Faith, for example) you get training instead in another skill the secondary class offers.

2) Novice Power and Adept Power both grant a +3 bonus in different untrained skills from your second class (similar to Jack of All Trades and, interestingly enough, stacking with it for a total of +5... wonder how they figured that out...).

3) Acolyte power can swap two powers instead of one at 22nd level.

4) When you finally get to Paragon Multiclassing theres no trade-in for the At-Will power; you just get another one.

5) One generic ability gained at 11th level:

Heroic Action: When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you gain a +4 bonus on all attack rolls until the start of your next turn.

6) An extra ability gained at 16th level, based on what class you Paragon Multiclassed into:

Cleric: You can use your Healing Word power once per encounter instead of once per day and gain the Healer's Lore ability of the Cleric class.

Fighter: You gain the Combat Superiority ability of the Fighter class.

Paladin: You can use Divine Might or Divine Mettle once per encounter as the Paladin's Channel Divinity ability.  Once per day you can use the Lay on Hands ability of the Paladin class.

Ranger: You can use your Hunter's Quarry ability once per round.  It does not expire until the end of the encounter.

Rogue:  You can use your Sneak Attack ability as a Rogue instead of once per encounter.

Warlock:  You can not choose what At-Will you gain through Paragon Multiclassing, the At-Will gained is dependent on your Pact.  You gain your chosen Pact's Boon as well as the ability to use Warlock's Curse once per encounter.

Warlord: You can use your Inspiring Word ability once per encounter.  You gain the Inspiring Presence feature of the Warlord class.

Wizard: You can not choose what At-Will you gain through Paragon Multiclassing, the At-Will gained is the same you picked when you took the Arcane Initiate feat.  You gain mastery over a Wizard implement as the Arcane Implement Mastery class feature.

As more classes are created, more similar additions will be put to this list.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:18:01 AM by X-Codes »

Mister D

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 02:49:38 PM »
I think this is a bit too powerful...
I mean, probably not generally more powerful than paragon paths, but it looks like it would lead to a lot of problems in some cases...

DemonLord57

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 03:58:58 PM »
I think this could very easily be overpowered. I don't know if it is, though. In any case, having this makes many more powerful options than before. That's not inherently a bad thing, though. It's only bad if this makes paragon multiclassing too good. Right now, I don't think it does, and merely makes it an actual good option. I'm worried that when enough power choices come out, though, that it'll be overpowered. You should take all of my (and everyone else's really) guesstimations about this with a large grain of salt, though.

As for the content of the idea: The restriction you put on the Warlock one is easily circumvented. All you need is a Rod of Corruption. (and preferably a minion to target the initial curse on) Suddenly you've got the full benefit of both the Curse and the pact boon. The pact boon part is mainly what I'd be worried about...

Also, the Paladin one is weak, IMO. All of the others provide very strong and... interesting features of the class (except maybe for Ranger and Rogue, those ones aren't really interesting.)

X-Codes

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 12:22:31 AM »
I couldn't come up with anything really good to give the Paladin without out-classing it compared to Fighter.  As for the Warlock being circumventable, that does work but it's pidgenholing you into an implement.  Not just an implement, either, but an implement that can't be combined with a Weapon or other implement, which is important for multiclass builds as you only have two hands to hold Weapons, Implements, and Shields.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 12:25:22 PM »
So, my general stance on paragon multiclassing is as follows:

(1) When a character takes an action X, he should be within epsilon of the effectiveness of a pure class character taking action X at the same character level.  So, for a 3e example, a fighter/wizard casting fireball should be within a die of a pure wizard.  (if the wizard is getting 10d6, its ok if the fighter is getting 9d6, although 10d6 would be best, but a one-die error tolerance for whatever calculation is acceptable).

(1a) Epsilon here is going to be difference in attribute distributions in 4e.  Basically, you need to compromise on stats to paragon multiclass most of the time, and this means that you will be less effective at either role when acting in that capacity.  As such, any other difference we impose on your ability to act as either role is *excessive* - you're already down the allowed epsilon when acting in either capacity, we don't need to tear huge chunks of flesh out of your chest and rub salt in the wounds.

(2) The difference between multiclass and pure class is not how good you are at various abilities, its how your abilities are distributed between classes.  A paragon multiclass fighter/wizard is not a defender minoring in controller, he is equally defender and controller, and should be treated as such in the rules.

(3) All powers of the same type and level should be approximately the same power.  So all at-wills should be roughly equivalent in power, all encounter attack power 1s should be approximately the same power.  Thus, whenever you perform a swap of a power for a same type and level power from another class, you haven't gotten more power, just differently powerful.

(3a) If powers of the same type and level are not approximately equally powerful, that is a problem with the offending powers, not the assumption of 3a (broken/unbalanced/whatever, See: Blade Cascade, Seal of Binding, etc...).

(3b) because the standard way to swap powers is via a feat, you are giving up a feat to be differently powerful, and thus losing a feat worth of power.  Thus all multi-class feats should have some other minor benefit to make you not feel like a schmuck for taking them.

(4) PP powers are better for specializing than base class powers.  Specialization is more powerful than generalization.  Therefore I see no reason for paragon multiclassing not to give all the base class features by 16th level, on a schedule similar to a PP.  You gave up a PP for this, it'd be pretty lame if you weren't as good as a pure class at their heroic abilities by the end of paragon.  No, this doesn't supplant them, while you were dicking around with another base class, they took something awesome, like Blood Mage, and you can cry about it later.

---------
You may have noticed the Failmax forums features one obnoxious WotC apologist, Titanium Dragon, who has these bizarre notions about a number of things (paragon multiclassing included), and specifically that swapping an at-will power is somehow godly and justifies the sucking void that is paragon multiclassing.  If someone would like to try to prove that swapping an at-will is truly that awesome, I'm willing to read.  I do reserve the right to laugh at you.  Seriously, even people like TD who make the claim *haven't even bothered to create a sample character*.  Why?  I don't know, but I might hazard a guess that they subconsciously understand just how badly gimped such a character would actually be.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 02:05:22 PM by Squirrelloid »
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X-Codes

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 01:51:50 PM »
Swapping at-will powers can actually be absurdly useful.  Imagine a Aegis of Shielding Swordmage that was teamed up with a brute-force-all-the-way Minotaur Fighter.  If said Aegis of Shielding Swordmage happened to have Heavy Blade Opportunity and was flanking some poor sap with the Minotaur Fighter, then he could really up the damage dealt when the poor sap sandwiched between them tried to move away if he happened to have Commander's Strike instead of Sword Burst, seeing as the Minotaur would then get in two cracks with his absurdly-oversized-but-seriously-not-compensating-for-anything weapon and even adds the Swordmage's Int mod to one of the damage rolls.

If that's not good enough, then explain to me what self-respecting Paladin/Champion of Order with a Rogue cohort wouldn't want to hit some clod with a Furious Smash instead of a Holy Strike when said clod dares take his opportunity attack against the Rogue as the Rogue moves into position behind him.

The thing is, most Defenders can be made a lot more effective if they get a little seasoning of Controller or Leader just like many Strikers can become better with a couple Controller tricks or Leaders and Controllers gaining mutual benefit from sharing with each other.  Not only do the individual characters become better when all this happens, but something involving eggs and baskets is avoided so should the Controller fall the Defender can smash a hole through the minion horde big enough for the Leader to go and pick him back up again, or the Striker can make a hole in the front-line so he can get in a flanking attack with the Defender or the Leader can daze a monster threatening the Striker giving him protection from the attacks as well as all-important Combat Advantage.

Of course, one single at-will power swap is one tiny nugget of joy in the vast bucket of suckitude that is Paragon Multiclassing.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 04:41:48 PM »
Swapping at-will powers can actually be absurdly useful.  Imagine a Aegis of Shielding Swordmage that was teamed up with a brute-force-all-the-way Minotaur Fighter.  If said Aegis of Shielding Swordmage happened to have Heavy Blade Opportunity and was flanking some poor sap with the Minotaur Fighter, then he could really up the damage dealt when the poor sap sandwiched between them tried to move away if he happened to have Commander's Strike instead of Sword Burst, seeing as the Minotaur would then get in two cracks with his absurdly-oversized-but-seriously-not-compensating-for-anything weapon and even adds the Swordmage's Int mod to one of the damage rolls.

If that's not good enough, then explain to me what self-respecting Paladin/Champion of Order with a Rogue cohort wouldn't want to hit some clod with a Furious Smash instead of a Holy Strike when said clod dares take his opportunity attack against the Rogue as the Rogue moves into position behind him.

The thing is, most Defenders can be made a lot more effective if they get a little seasoning of Controller or Leader just like many Strikers can become better with a couple Controller tricks or Leaders and Controllers gaining mutual benefit from sharing with each other.  Not only do the individual characters become better when all this happens, but something involving eggs and baskets is avoided so should the Controller fall the Defender can smash a hole through the minion horde big enough for the Leader to go and pick him back up again, or the Striker can make a hole in the front-line so he can get in a flanking attack with the Defender or the Leader can daze a monster threatening the Striker giving him protection from the attacks as well as all-important Combat Advantage.

Of course, one single at-will power swap is one tiny nugget of joy in the vast bucket of suckitude that is Paragon Multiclassing.

I am still not convinced these characters are better, just different.  Yes, there are good combos.  The existing classes already have good combos.  And I fail to see how some of your examples couldn't already be achieved with the current rules - replace Swordmage with Tactlord, and flanking Commander's Strike OAs are going to happen, for instance.

The worst I've seen tossed around is Twin Strike on every melee character - and that of course requires them to have wanted to multi into ranger.  Either Twin Strike is balanced for a character to have or it isn't, so I don't see a problem here at all.
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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 10:37:02 PM »
... what self-respecting Paladin/Champion of Order with a Rogue cohort wouldn't want ...

You wouldn't happen to know if there's a Leadership-esque something in the pipeline, eh ??

X-Codes

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Re: Homebrew:bring paragon multiclassing on par
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 11:43:39 PM »
... what self-respecting Paladin/Champion of Order with a Rogue cohort wouldn't want ...

You wouldn't happen to know if there's a Leadership-esque something in the pipeline, eh ??

Nah, it was just a random Rogue-belittling statement.