Author Topic: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?  (Read 5004 times)

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ImperatorK

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Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« on: August 29, 2011, 09:31:07 AM »
Here's the story:
I was making a character for a game. The DM said that powergaming isn't looked upon favorably. Okay, I tried not to make too strong a character.
Now, I've chosen some pretty un-optimal fluff concept: Armor-less unarmed combatant who dumped all his points into Cha, leaving Int and Wis as dump stats and Str/Dex/Con with only 14s.
I didn't want to change the concept in favor of optimization. That's why I tried my best to offset the weaknesses in other ways, so I won't be a dead weight for the party.

I was accused of "Anti-Powergaming" (picking sub-optimal choices for fluff reasons), and was also accused of using "Anti-Powergaming" as an excuse to Powergame. ???
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 09:35:22 AM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 09:44:40 AM »
You optimized for weakness.  It's still optimizing, and it could be seen as teasing to players that aren't very good at it.  (They probably aren't actually against it, very few players actually are, any fighter with Str as his highest ability score or wizard doing the same with Int is optimized to some degree -- but pretense of looking down on something is a time-honored excuse for why you aren't very good at that something.)  Attempting to still be functional while optimizing for weakness is just rubbing salt in the wound.  "Whee, look at me!  I'm building garbage on purpose, and it's still equal to or better than anything you clowns came up with."
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 09:46:57 AM by weenog »
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ImperatorK

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 10:11:21 AM »
I optimized a weakness, not for weakness. There's a difference. ;)
I just chose a fluff concept that is sub-optimal mechanically and tried to make it not too weak.
I didn't chose it because it's weak, but because it's cool, if that's what you mean.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:16:04 AM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 11:35:52 AM »
Quote
You optimized for weakness. 


I just to touch on this again. . . how min-maxing is but 1 tool of "Optimization".

Lots of people don't get that, they idiotically try to clump, powergaming, munchkining, monty-hauling, and sometimes cheating(oh the irony) into one large basket. *Shrug*.

Optimization is about getting this "just right" like baby bear style, deciding just right is up to the wielder.

So yeah you optimized FOR weakness, or it looks like you did. Like you pulled a uhmm.. defiant act etc.

For example, I requested to play a different race, I was invited to play in an elf game, but I didn't want to be an elf (the 2 groups playing were engaged in some pretty heavy "Elf fap" about how their grand and beautiful etc..) but the dm was like "Dude, this is the elf game, roll an elf and join us.  ;) "  I though about it for a bit and said okay. I whipped out a druid w/abberation wild shape. I pretty much didn't play an elf.

Which was just right for me.
and in some ways maybe kinda jerkish.

What you did there seems of a similar bent, to me, to weenog, and likely to the dm. It looks like you optimized to be weak.
You're saying that you DIDN'T do that to be a smart ass, I guess? :clap
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RobbyPants

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 11:37:11 AM »
It sounds like they know you're good at the game and they're looking for a reason to be pissed about it. Anything you do from this standpoint that demonstrates any understanding of the rules will be seen as further proof that you're a dirty power-gamer.


I just chose a fluff concept that is sub-optimal mechanically and tried to make it not too weak.
I've done this type of thing. Sometimes because I think it'd be cool, and other times because I'm playing with someone who's much worse at building characters and I don't want to make him bored. I've found if I play at a similar level as everyone else, the game difficulty tends to match our level. If I roll anything better, I have to sandbag to keep the game fun.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 11:42:51 AM »
Tell them they should respect your authority, and they're just jealous of your mad skillz.


[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ImperatorK

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 11:59:26 AM »
Quote
It sounds like they know you're good at the game and they're looking for a reason to be pissed about it.
It's more paranoia then knowledge about me. I didn't play with the DM or players before.

Quote
So yeah you optimized FOR weakness, or it looks like you did. Like you pulled a uhmm.. defiant act etc.
Quote
What you did there seems of a similar bent, to me, to weenog, and likely to the dm. It looks like you optimized to be weak.
You're saying that you DIDN'T do that to be a smart ass, I guess?
Or maybe I did it, because I liked that concept so much? Nice of you to call me a liar.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 12:04:02 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 12:12:14 PM »
I suggest you continue to not play with the DM or players.

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

ImperatorK

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 12:19:20 PM »
I can't play with them. I was banned from the game (before it started) for a completely unjustified reason. The DM couldn't understand that the Wolf Totem Barbarian variant is something entirely different then the Spiritual Totem ACF and that they CAN be used together, RAW. and she even specifically allowed to ignore the fluff. :banghead
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 12:22:58 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 12:46:57 PM »
Well, generally its just fear of the unknown. They don't know what you CAN do so everything is suspect, especially the negative seeming ones.
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

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[spoiler]
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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RobbyPants

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 01:13:58 PM »
I would recommend against using ACFs in general in a game like that. As soon as people like that see you swap a feature out for another, they scream min-max. Or I'd recommend you not play with them, but it sounds like that problem is already taken care of. ;)

I haven't played with unfamiliar people in a long time, but after reading enough horror stories and playing in weird games on my own, I've decided to talk to the DM before the game starts to get a good feel for what s/he's looking for in a game and to make sure they fully understand what my character can and cannot do, so there's no surprises.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

ImperatorK

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 01:40:18 PM »
That was a PbP game, BTW.
I think that even with zero real optimization on my part, just taking Warblade all the way, with medium armor, and a longsword, I would be accepted to the game. But then I would probably outshine the rest of the party (don't know what they wanted to play, but I think that not one of them was a powergamer) and the DM would call "Haxorz" or something. And even if not, I wouldn't have fun, because that wouldn't be the concept I wanted to play.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 01:44:43 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 09:08:57 PM »

You could try to out-roleplay them ... and suck mechanically too.
Like Chicken Infested Commoner in a vegetarian area.
If you don't stop pulling out those chickens we can't kill or eat, we'll kill you.


I've had this thing for Planet Of The Apes,
as in the "why did this happen to me" soliloquy.
So you've got a flat 5% chance with every action (and why not)
to break out into jeremiad against the world at large.
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Don't the lightning bolts of Zeus ever strike Vampires? ARGH !


Midnight_v

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 09:54:00 PM »
Quote
So yeah you optimized FOR weakness, or it looks like you did. Like you pulled a uhmm.. defiant act etc.
Quote
What you did there seems of a similar bent, to me, to weenog, and likely to the dm. It looks like you optimized to be weak.
You're saying that you DIDN'T do that to be a smart ass, I guess?
Or maybe I did it, because I liked that concept so much? Nice of you to call me a liar.
[/quote] I..? You know you're kinda sensitive you know that?  I wasn't calling you a liar, I was saying you're mistaken, that build IS deliberatley weak, or appears that way for people who have the slightest inkling about the game. . .
 I wasn't particularly saying you "You did this to be a dick" I was saying "I've done things like this, in the same vein and I was being defiant" it certainly appears thats what you were doing, and in someways I imagine that Dm felt the same way.

It seems you got banned because they thought you were trying to ruin the game one way or another. I kinda can see where they MIGHT be coming from. Can you?


\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

ImperatorK

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 11:46:38 PM »
The accuracy of your assumptions strongly depends on your ability to read peoples minds, mine in this case. I'm quite certain that you don't posses such an ability.
I'm saying "I chose a fluff concept. That fluff concept unfortunately isn't very optimal mechanically in D&D. But the fluff concept was so cool and important to me that I stubbornly kept on to it. Not wanting to be a burden on the party, I tried my best to make the character at least decent mechanically". If, despite my words, you still assume that I was dishonest, then you're practically calling me a liar.
To make it clear to you: At no point was I thinking "This choice is mechanically inferior. Lets take it. Oh, and I use it as a cover up for my nefarious plan to sneak by the DM a much stronger and overpowered option! Muahahahaha!" No. It wasn't like that at all. I understand that it can be incomprehensible to you that there are people who are able to pick a fluff concept first *gasp* and worry about the mechanics later. And I can honestly say that it's the first time something like that happened to me. I'm an optimizer at heart. Maybe not exactly a Powergamer, but I like my PCs strong mechanically. This one time I did something that normally would be cheered on by any true roleplayer - I cared for the fluff more then the mechanics. And I still was called a Powergamer and shunned from the game. You can't even imagine how confusing all this is for me.
I said what my motivations where. You should have the common decency to give me the benefit of the doubt until you have proof that I'm being dishonest with anybody.
You want to know why exactly I was banned from the game? I'll tell you:
Combining Wolf Totem Barbarian variant (from SRD) and Spiritual Totem ACF (from Complete Champion) is legal, right? Well, the DM couldn't bother to look up the rules before starting a fight with me about this ruling. Her whole argument hung on the naming. "They're both Totems, so you can't have two" she said. When I pointed out that yes, you can have both (and explained why), she just snapped for no reason (probably couldn't handle being proven wrong), insulted me (I was astonishingly calm during the whole discussion with her, even after that) and threw out of the game. If you call that reasonable, then I don't want to know what is unreasonable in your book.
All I was doing was optimizing a chosen fluff concept, not powergaming. There's a difference. And I didn't choose it because it's weak, but because it's cool.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 11:52:02 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 12:08:12 AM »
Quote
I understand that it can be incomprehensible to you that there are people who are able to pick a fluff concept first *gasp* and worry about the mechanics later
This is what I'm talking about.
When you make statments like this it reflects more on you than on me to be honest. You don't know me at all but you project this whole thing about fluff vs. mechanics on to me. The logic you using doesn't gel. I can't even get mad at you, its just a shake my head kinda thing.

 We don't owe you the benefit of the doubt, and theres no reason to NOT question your motives. If determining we're discussing the correctness of the dm's posistion. Also...

The exact reason you got kicked out is relavent to the discussion, ANYWAY, and you should have put that in the first post. Aside from that "Fuck off" btw... if people think what you're saying sounds like bullshit, then they (I in this case) have every right to A. Call you on it. or B. Question till they get the relavant info pops up.
I'm just looking for the relevant info. . .

The more I read this and you've been writing, I suspect the reason you got kicked has more to do with your poor attitude more than anything.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Littha

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 12:44:08 AM »
I would bear in mind when talking to people here that Concept Enabling and Concept Optimising are the most popular ways to optimise according to http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11042.10

Nemo

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 10:30:53 AM »
Well, their conflict cascaded from private messages into our boards, when he asked in rules section about totems and zelous players of that GM jumped at him and suddenly also at me, when I said he wasn't mechanically wrong, while having nothing else to do with him. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Flastinn.info%2Fdnd-i-d20%2F10414-warianty-totem-barbarian-z-srd-pytanie.html http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Flastinn.info%2Fdnd-i-d20%2F10417-powergaming-vs-anty-powergaming.html read if you are interested, though you have to bear with google translation ;P

Midnight_v

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 10:49:05 AM »
It certainly does put an interesting light on things.
After reading all of that, I see what ImpK did. I think he was treated unfairly, but I can see at least how they might have thought he was being funny still.

It is interesting, now I wonder what that build would have been capable of later. Also I do see how they say "the default is the Gm doesnt' have to give a reason that you're not allowed in the game." he just has to pick people who he wants in the game mostly.
I don't think the Dm is God, as they keep saying. bad form.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 10:55:24 AM by Midnight_v »
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

ImperatorK

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Re: Powergaming vs. Anti-Powergaming - a new fallacy?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 11:24:10 AM »
And once again Nemo is my savior. :D Thank you man.
And thank you Midnight for finally understanding.

BTW, I have no problem with threating the GM as a God. He is one, but only in his game. Outside of it he's just a player/human like everyone else. The title of DM does not give him some special privileges to interpret the rules differently or dictate what is and what isn't RAW. There's a big difference between "That's the rule in my game (houserule)" and "That's the rule (RAW)".
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 11:29:16 AM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]