Author Topic: Heroics  (Read 9321 times)

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Tr011

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Heroics
« on: August 28, 2011, 11:55:48 PM »
Heroics from Spell Compendium (p. 113) grants a fighter feats for 10min/lvl. This also works for your familiar, if it stays close to you (via share spell).

Anyone got some interesting ideas to use this?

I tryed last session to combine this with Trollshape (PHB2) and Improved Trip, Combat Expertise and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), but this uses up a lot of spell slots (but it was really fun).

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2011, 11:59:39 PM »
Martial Study to pick up Tome of Battle maneuvers is probably the best one.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

altpersona

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 12:01:06 AM »
free temp hp w/ toughness?  any port in a storm...

cleave  :P
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 12:40:31 AM by altpersona »
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Tr011

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 12:12:24 AM »
Martial Study to pick up Tome of Battle maneuvers is probably the best one.
That's a nice one I think. BTW: Can you grant your familiar another feat than yourself?

Vicerious

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 12:37:05 AM »
free temp hp w/ toughness?  any port in a storm...
Toughness isn't a fighter feat.

Martial Study is a good one, like Phaedrus said.  If you have an extra cast handy, then using that to qualify for Martial Stance can be even more interesting.
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Tr011

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 01:18:23 AM »
free temp hp w/ toughness?  any port in a storm...
Toughness isn't a fighter feat.

Martial Study is a good one, like Phaedrus said.  If you have an extra cast handy, then using that to qualify for Martial Stance can be even more interesting.
Improved Toughness is, it's better anyway, but can't be stacked.
Also, how great is getting White Raven Tactic's on your FAMILIAR for only two lvl 2 spells? xD
Definitely great to grant yourself an extra actions, especially if only your familiar has to take the feats while you can choose Improved Initiative and Quickdraw.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 01:29:13 AM »
free temp hp w/ toughness?  any port in a storm...
Toughness isn't a fighter feat.

Martial Study is a good one, like Phaedrus said.  If you have an extra cast handy, then using that to qualify for Martial Stance can be even more interesting.
Improved Toughness is, it's better anyway, but can't be stacked.
Also, how great is getting White Raven Tactic's on your FAMILIAR for only two lvl 2 spells? xD
Definitely great to grant yourself an extra actions, especially if only your familiar has to take the feats while you can choose Improved Initiative and Quickdraw.
I certainly don't think it has to take the same options as you, but YMMV. You could always cast the spell more than once, though, if the DM says otherwise. That way the familiar also doesn't have to stay within 5'.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Redeemer of Ogar

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 04:11:10 PM »
Quote from: SRD
Same Effect with Differing ResultsThe same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

If you cast Heroics twice on the same target, the second casting overwrites the first casting's effect. While this might technically (depending on timing) allow you to gain a feat that had a pre-req gained from the first casting as Vicerious suggests, there is a flaw in the plan:

Quote from: srd

And whether or not you can select the feat from the 2nd casting based on a pre-req gained by the first, you could no longer USE the feat once the casting is complete, because at some point between casting and completion, you lose the feat from the first spell.

I do wish it weren't so...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 04:16:56 PM »
Quote from: SRD
Same Effect with Differing ResultsThe same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

If you cast Heroics twice on the same target, the second casting overwrites the first casting's effect. While this might technically (depending on timing) allow you to gain a feat that had a pre-req gained from the first casting as Vicerious suggests, there is a flaw in the plan:

Quote from: srd

And whether or not you can select the feat from the 2nd casting based on a pre-req gained by the first, you could no longer USE the feat once the casting is complete, because at some point between casting and completion, you lose the feat from the first spell.

I do wish it weren't so...
I don't think it is clear that this applies here. If we look at the entire section, instead of just one subsection:

Quote
Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselvesDifferent Bonus NamesSame Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant

Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.
This spell isn't providing any of the underlined effects. There is no reason it shouldn't stack. It's doing something entirely different every time you cast it, basically. I also think Resist Elements (and similar spells) should stack as long as you use each casting to resist a different elemental type.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tonymitsu

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 04:22:16 PM »
Doesn't the spell itself explicitly state that a second casting of it overwrites the first?

Rebel7284

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 04:24:14 PM »
Doesn't the spell itself explicitly state that a second casting of it overwrites the first?

Just looked at the PDF.  I see nothing to indicate that.
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Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2011, 05:06:36 PM »
Not trying to sideline this thread too much, but if Phaedrus's interpretation is correct does that mean that mean you can stack multiple body of the sun from spell compendium or multiple pulse of hates from phb2 to cause enemies to take your aura damage multiple times?!

Iskajir

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2011, 05:21:42 PM »
So by the above interpretations, you cannot have Resist Energy (fire) and Resist Energy (acid) going on at the same time?

Tr011

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2011, 07:31:49 PM »
So by the above interpretations, you cannot have Resist Energy (fire) and Resist Energy (acid) going on at the same time?
Would be the same problem indeed. But it's a different to stacking Body of the sun, since it's stacking one spell with different options.

snakeman830

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2011, 07:41:33 PM »
Not trying to sideline this thread too much, but if Phaedrus's interpretation is correct does that mean that mean you can stack multiple body of the sun from spell compendium or multiple pulse of hates from phb2 to cause enemies to take your aura damage multiple times?!
same effect multiple times.  Resist Energy and Heroics are different in that it's different effects each time.  Polymorph is actually used as the example for "same effect with differing results" in the books, but that is kind of a "duh" as anything can only have one form at a time.  The effect is the same (target changes form), but the results are different.

On resist energy and heroics, the effect is different and the results are different.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Tr011

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2011, 08:24:44 PM »
Not trying to sideline this thread too much, but if Phaedrus's interpretation is correct does that mean that mean you can stack multiple body of the sun from spell compendium or multiple pulse of hates from phb2 to cause enemies to take your aura damage multiple times?!
same effect multiple times.  Resist Energy and Heroics are different in that it's different effects each time.  Polymorph is actually used as the example for "same effect with differing results" in the books, but that is kind of a "duh" as anything can only have one form at a time.  The effect is the same (target changes form), but the results are different.

On resist energy and heroics, the effect is different and the results are different.
So you can't use Alter Self into Kobold, then Polymorph into a dragon and after Polymorph expires be a kobold again? Or does that simply not stack while it's in effect but afterwards you get rid of the polymorph and the Alter Self form comes out again?

snakeman830

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2011, 09:07:27 PM »
Not trying to sideline this thread too much, but if Phaedrus's interpretation is correct does that mean that mean you can stack multiple body of the sun from spell compendium or multiple pulse of hates from phb2 to cause enemies to take your aura damage multiple times?!
same effect multiple times.  Resist Energy and Heroics are different in that it's different effects each time.  Polymorph is actually used as the example for "same effect with differing results" in the books, but that is kind of a "duh" as anything can only have one form at a time.  The effect is the same (target changes form), but the results are different.

On resist energy and heroics, the effect is different and the results are different.
So you can't use Alter Self into Kobold, then Polymorph into a dragon and after Polymorph expires be a kobold again? Or does that simply not stack while it's in effect but afterwards you get rid of the polymorph and the Alter Self form comes out again?
Why turn into the Kobold first?

But yes, if you were under both an Alter Self spell and a Polymorph spell, and the second spell cast expired (in this case polymorph), you would once again be under the effects of Alter Self (only now) and be a Kobold.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Tr011

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2011, 09:20:00 PM »
Why turn into the Kobold first?
Had this question coming up two sessions ago when I Alter Selfed into a kobold (10min/lvl) and then used Trollshape in a battle (1round/lvl).

I made a list out of some useful Fighter Feats for the use of Heroics, if someone is interested, I can post it. But the rules question if it's stacking or not seems to be still unsolved.


Tr011

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Re: Heroics
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2011, 10:47:46 PM »
First of all, it's quite not finished and it's untested, also these are only the feats I found useful for my char or his familiar (a wizard/rogue/unseen seer). Often the feats are nice, but not worth the 2nd level slot (f.e. Lunging Strike from PHB2 adds 5ft reach to attacks, even touch attacks for spells, but I find Alter Self into a Chameleon (Underdark) more useful). Also, I didn't mention Martial Study/Stance since it's very complex and I'm too tired right now to go on.

[spoiler]
Melee
Weapon Finesse   BAB +1   PHB   dex instead of str for light weapons
Combat Intuition   Sense Motive 4, BAB +5   CAd   Check enemy as free action, +4 on such checks, +1 melee attack rolls
Subduing Strike   -   BoED   No penalty on attacking with nonlethal damage
Adaptable Flanker   Combat Reflexes, Vexing Flanker, BAB +4   PHB2   flank with your small+ familiar an opponent as a swift action
Vexing Flanker   Combat Reflexes   PHB2   +4 flanking instead of +2

Ranged
Point Blank Shot   -   PHB   +1 attack & damage in 30ft.
Precise Shot   PBS   PHB   no -4 into melee
Brutal Throw   -   CAd   Str instead of Dex
Deadeye Shot   PBS, BAB +4, sneak or skirmish, Precise Shot   PHB2   deny dex with ranged attack when readying attack (can be spell, too)

Melee & Ranged
Chosen Foe   -   DotU   +1 attack & damage vs. one enemy, -2 vs. others

Defensive
Constant Guardian   -   DotU   -2 attack, +2 dodge AC to ally in 10ft
Deflect Arrows   Dex 13, IUS   PHB   1/round deflect ranged weapon you are aware of
Improved Toughness   Base Fortitude +2   CW   +1 HP/HD
Improved Cold Endurance   Cold Endurance, base fort +6   Frost   Resistance to Cold 5
Fade into Violence   Bluff 6, Hide 6   PHB2   redirect melee attack as immediate action against ally
Shadow Striker   Hide 12, Move Silently 12   PHB2   can't be attacked if not attacking, attack&hide, go away come back & sneak

Utility
Improved Initiative   -   PHB   +4 ini
Quick Draw   BAB +1   PHB   Draw as a free action instead of move
Combat Intuition   Sense Motive 4, BAB +5   CAd   Check enemy as free action, +4 on such checks, +1 melee attack rolls
Blade Meditation   Concentration 1, BAB +4, one maneuver   ToB   +2 tumble, intimidate, concentration, balance, sense motive, hide, jump or diplomacy

Combat Actions
Giantbane   Medium or smaller, tumble 5, bab+6   CW 111   Duck Underneath, Death from Below, Climb Aboard
Daunting Presence   Cha 13, BAB +1   LM   shaken opponent in 30ft. for 10mins if fails will save
[/spoiler]

PS: How can I fix this to a table?