Author Topic: The problem with published settings, in general:  (Read 6353 times)

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wotmaniac

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The problem with published settings, in general:
« on: August 26, 2011, 04:33:21 PM »
Okay, so we've already got the FR thread and the Eberron thread; so, while we're at it, let's just tear apart published settings in general:

The way I see it, (with the exception of PS and FR) one of two things happen by time you hit 10th level:
1) the PCs outgrow the setting (i.e., the setting's shtick stops being a factor)
2) the setting itself stops being relevant (i.e., the elements that can serve as relevant plot points can too easily be refluffed to fit pretty-much any setting)

#1:
Dark Sun ; Ravenloft

#2:
pretty-much everything else.


This leads me to believe that the people who write this stuff simply don't care about high-level play.  Sure, they may throw out a bone once in a while, but that's all it is.
Their defense is probably somewhere along the lines of "most people don't make it to high-level play" -- to which I say "so, which is the chicken and which is the egg".

Discuss.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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wotmaniac

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 10:43:20 PM »
 ... aaaaaaaannnnnnnd wotmaniac has yet again failed to attract any interest in an idea.
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[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Midnight_v

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 01:00:26 AM »
Duude... I just saw it. Gimme till tommorow, off to work.  :D
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wotmaniac

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 01:44:54 AM »
Duude... I just saw it. Gimme till tommorow, off to work.  :D
:lmao

That's okay -- I'm use to it.  :P
(don't get me wrong -- I'm interested; so by all means ...)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

InnaBinder

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 09:44:08 AM »
Quote
This leads me to believe that the people who write this stuff simply don't care about high-level play.  Sure, they may throw out a bone once in a while, but that's all it is.
Their defense is probably somewhere along the lines of "most people don't make it to high-level play" -- to which I say "so, which is the chicken and which is the egg".
If the folks with whom I've played and/or DMed 3.5 are any indication, the types of stories they want to tell are relatively difficult to model with characters who can access the games highest non-Epic level spells.  Couple that with occasional character death leading to a group that's less invested in their social dynamic than they were when the group was created, and most of the players I've known have been ready to move on to a new campaign by about 15th level.  So, in the cases that I've seen, the gamers really don't make it to high-level play, largely due to their own disinterest in what happens with the game and the stories they can tell at that level.
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RobbyPants

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 09:57:54 AM »
I think Inna is right.

Most stories you read/watch in movies don't involve seriously high level characters (in D&D terms). We're just not used to it. Players like the idea of getting high level abilities, and then they often squander those abilities. I think the only reason any games lasts at high level for more than a session is because the players and the DMs are barely scratching the surface of their potential.

That, and the whole concept of going through a trap-filled, monster-inhabited dungeon to get the McGuffin at the end is so entrenched in D&D history that a lot of people aren't willing to give it up at high level when it stops making sense. I think a lot of writers just don't know how to handled those types of stories, so you end up with settings that fall apart at high level, or stupid fiat rules like in World's Largest Dungeon to make it last a little longer.
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weenog

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 10:27:39 AM »
So am I the only one that looks at some of the abilities (and the funds!) available at higher levels, and thinks "I should be awarded/buy/steal some land, and start a game of Civilization here"?
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Kajhera

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 11:14:06 AM »
No, you're not the only person.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 11:43:02 AM »
So am I the only one that looks at some of the abilities (and the funds!) available at higher levels, and thinks "I should be awarded/buy/steal some land, and start a game of Civilization here"?
My "about to hit level 2" character from my F2F Wheel of Time game is already doing that. I'm even planning out my own army so I can have a nice little kingdom and if the current ruler of that land has a problem with it, I'll crush their army or buy them off with my near infinite ability to acquire money.

As to the original thought. The issue is that D&D has a lot of carry over from previous editions where most things were done by fiat. Those ubertastic 9th level spells weren't as big an issue because the DM just hand waived they didn't work or were only used by the bad guy anyway. In 3.0/.5 the rules became a lot less arbitrary and people actually wanted to hit high levels. No one could both follow the rules consistently and let the PCs hit high levels without the game crashing and burning.

4e tried to fix this problem by toning it all down by a lot and eliminating the wild card spells that were too powerful or dynamic. The issue is no one likes to go from Phenomenal Cosmic Power to itty bitty living space. Which is exactly what 4e tried to force on people.
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Unbeliever

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 12:53:11 PM »
I actually don't see it as a level-based issue at all.  I would characterize it as a variation of the OP's suggestion #1, though.

I think most settings have a schtick.  It's a desert world or a world overrun by goblins, or whatever.  And, that schtick can carry you for a while.  But, after a number of sessions, the game is going to need more than that schtick.  It's going to have to be a bona fide interesting and intriguing world.  And, in this regard, most published settings fall flat. 

For example, I was a huge fan of the Birthright setting.  It had two things that set it apart from other settings -- you could play rulers (so they embraced the Civilization game right out of the blocks) and there was this whole Highlander-style bloodline thing.  But, in addition to that, the setting was a pretty interesting, semi-Arthurian take on things and there were also just interesting elements to it scattered throughout.  Without that second part, a Birthright campaign could only last for a little while, essentially till the novelty wore off.

The other thing that I think kills published campaign worlds it too much detail.  You want a living, breathing world, but you also want one you can modify to suit your campaign needs and to allow your characters to impact and influence it, which becomes more important as the game wears on.  The more the game setting represents a beautiful, elaborate tapestry presented by the game designers, the more likely you are to be playing "NPC Theatre" than an actual RPG.

Those are my issues w/ most campaign worlds, which is why I have only really enjoyed a few (Birthright and Planescape namely), and have generally pillaged others for ideas and quickly gone "off book" in games I've played or run.  We mostly tend to use homebrew settings inspired by books (Icelandic Sagas, The Malazan Series, Tolkien) or history/myth (Ancient Greece, First Crusade) anyway.

@High Level Play
I do think that, generally, way too little thought has been put into how the campaign should evolve as levels go up.  It's not so much a problem of adversaries -- there are plenty of powerful ones lying around.  There is the problem of powerful, open-ended spell effects, which should change the kind of adventures you are involved in, but I also think that could be solved fairly easily by introducing counters to those effects (as an OP noted, usually done by fiat in AD&D, I'm looking at you "Tomb of Horrors"), or just limiting them in small ways.  And, I think some of your high-level adventures can surely be MacGuffin-based and so on.

But, high-level characters should eventually fit into the world differently, and they have typically developed reputations.  The Leader of Men thing is pretty hard-wired into D&D, hell, I recall "name level."  And, while they have thoughtfully provided me w/ dozens of charts concerning how much silver I owe the limner and the clark on my staff (b/c if there's anything D&D knows, it's charts, them and Rifts), they haven't really produced much material about what kind of adventures one can run and play as a Leader of Men.  They haven't given me a huge incentive to product said Men, and so on. 

This is a particular issue in D&D b/c the average 16th level party is tougher than the average army, which begs the question as to why I would want to bother leading this Men in the first place. 

ImperatorK

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 01:04:10 PM »
@ High-level play
Forgotten Realms are about that.
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Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 01:42:11 PM »
@ High-level play
Forgotten Realms are about that.
We're back on this again?  Really?
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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 01:50:05 PM »
The other problem with high-level play that surfaced in 3.x is - in older editions, wizards were not ENTITLED to their choice of new spells when they levelled. You got what you found or could purchase, and you were grateful for it. Clerics had access, sure, but they also had two built-in control structures: their church and their deity could both come down on them for being jerks, and the deity can also just say "no, I'm never granting that spell to anyone except in special circumstances." In 2nd Ed, Locate City Bomb would be solved by noone EVER finding a scroll of Locate City, for instance. No handwaving required.  :)

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2011, 01:51:04 PM »
@ High-level play
Forgotten Realms are about that.
So what does FR do that makes it so much better for high level play? Just having pre-made high level NPCs isn't changing anything about high level play or keeping the adventure's interesting. At best it just saves the DM some time making NPCs, and that is only if they fit into the role the DM needs out of a high level NPC.
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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2011, 01:51:22 PM »
The other problem with high-level play that surfaced in 3.x is - in older editions, wizards were not ENTITLED to their choice of new spells when they levelled. You got what you found or could purchase, and you were grateful for it. Clerics had access, sure, but they also had two built-in control structures: their church and their deity could both come down on them for being jerks, and the deity can also just say "no, I'm never granting that spell to anyone except in special circumstances." In 2nd Ed, Locate City Bomb would be solved by noone EVER finding a scroll of Locate City, for instance. No handwaving required.  :)
Clerics also only got up to 7th level spells.
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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2011, 01:57:22 PM »
@ High-level play
Forgotten Realms are about that.
So what does FR do that makes it so much better for high level play? Just having pre-made high level NPCs isn't changing anything about high level play or keeping the adventure's interesting. At best it just saves the DM some time making NPCs, and that is only if they fit into the role the DM needs out of a high level NPC.
^This

FR might want you to think it's about high level play, but given that all the things a high level character might want to do -- such as rule a nation as the powerful witch-queen or protect a cosmopolitan city from anything that might to threaten it, ensuring that it continues to be the New York City of fantasy worlds -- are already being done by other high level people.

EDIT: that's maybe a little unfair.  The aforementioned NPCs could be considered models for what your high level characters can do.  There might still be an execution problem -- simply b/c they are SOOO high level, but that's a smaller problem than the initial one.

Also, I should be more clear.  I usually define "high level" as 16+.  I have only very rarely played a game over level 25, and I daresay I've played more epic games than most.  So, I consider high level to be right in there between, roughly 15-25.  
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 02:00:36 PM by Unbeliever »

ImperatorK

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2011, 03:05:17 PM »
In one thread it is said that FR is flawed because all the NPCs are too epic and the PCs feel soooo insignificant.
In this thread you argue that FR isn't good for high-level play.
Which one is it? >.>

Quote
So what does FR do that makes it so much better for high level play?
You've got all those high level NPCs, threats, organizations, etc. Your players won't run out of things to do, because there will always be something more powerful to defeat.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what "high-level" means to you. Could you elaborate?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 03:12:10 PM by ImperatorK »
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2011, 03:11:24 PM »
In one thread it is said that FR is flawed because all the NPCs are too epic and the PCs feel to insignificant.
In this thread you argue that FR isn't good for high-level play.
Which one is it? >.>
I'm pretty sure he meant:
  • High-level play isn't suitable for dungeoneering, only politics.
  • FR doesn't let you play politics, therefore there is nothing left.
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ImperatorK

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2011, 03:14:56 PM »
I don't like politics, so I've got nothing to say on this matter.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

zugschef

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Re: The problem with published settings, in general:
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2011, 03:28:57 PM »
isn't this all a little bizarre? you are all wondering about 'courses of events of a realistic point of view' in a fantasy world. sure, it's got to be somewhat consistent, but honestly... the settings may be partially responsible for issues in this respect, but actually it starts with basics such as wealth: very soon, the adventurers will have so much cash that they would overthrow the economics of just about anything.

think about it...