Author Topic: Reasons to dislike Eberron  (Read 27717 times)

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veekie

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2011, 04:41:03 PM »
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oslecamo

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2011, 06:25:46 PM »
Precisely. There's all kinds of fun stuff being invented and PCs can't get a share of it.

That's like saying a horse-drawn carriage has an internal combustion engine because you need to feed the horse. The "lightning" isn't even from the elemental, it's raw magical energy leaking from the mag-lev rails conductor stones as they're put under pressure. There isn't any heat, let alone steam.
Ok, still a very minor diference from steampunk. The spirit is completely the same.

They know how to build them, it's just that the process involves an artefact. And you can give a man a prosthetic limb or glasses without understanding how to make a man. It's explicitly stated that warforged bodies are very easy to modify compared to most creatures.
How to make a man:
-Get a man and a women togheter.
-Get them drunk and/or hot (optional) or put their stuff togheter inside a lab tube and then back into the women.
-Wait around 9 months to get a baby.
-Rise the baby for 20-30 years.
-Congratulations, you have yourself a man. Any biology book can fill you into the details.

There.

Quote
Then why don't those crafter homunculus still haven't taken over living labor.
They're too small for mundane work, they're only good for enchanting items. And they're easily destroyed by vandals. And not everyone has the Craft Construct feat or wants to make something out of their own blood.
You've got those bigger warforgeds for heavier work and you get combat homunculus for protection.

Unbeliever

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2011, 11:06:51 PM »
@Steampunk
Steampunk is, in my humble opinion, clearly an aesthetic.  It's funky, clunky tech that does fantastical things.  I think lightning rails, just like fantastic airships, are right in steampunk's wheelhouse.  This is regardless of whether they are powered by steam.  Like, I think relatively little steampunk is actually steam-powered.  Jules Verne is one of the spiritual fathers of steampunk, and I think the Nautilus is nuclear-powered.  Maybe it's electric?  I'm almost positive it's not steam.  Escaflowne is another example -- steampunk mecha -- although I think they are powered by dragon-based phlebotinum rather than steam.  But, they have the kind of retro, weird lack of tech that evokes the aeshetic. 

Likewise, lightning rails are pretty iconically steampunk, whatever their pseudo-explanation. 

Whatever it is, I find Eberron a little too much of a hybrid in this way.  I appreciate its pulp sensibility.  But, I'd appreciate it if they better calibrated the tone.  I think it would make it more appealing, at least to those people who will find it appealing, and a bit more different from the standard D&D fare. 

This is actually my biggest issue w/ 4E settings.  By trying to make everything mechanically identical (even though they introduce 50 new powers, feats, etc. in every issue of Dragon ...), they have ended up whitewashing all the settings to make them feel too similar. 

I prefer many elements of the Iron Kingdoms to Eberron, but I find it too over the top and childishly grimdark for my tastes (and this is setting aside its awful rules).

I do like the astrological take on the planes.  I actually stole that for one of my games. 

Prime32

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2011, 12:14:59 AM »
Precisely. There's all kinds of fun stuff being invented and PCs can't get a share of it.
Eh? I'm not sure what you mean. PCs can't get a share of warforged raptors?

Quote
Quote
Then why don't those crafter homunculus still haven't taken over living labor.
They're too small for mundane work, they're only good for enchanting items. And they're easily destroyed by vandals. And not everyone has the Craft Construct feat or wants to make something out of their own blood.
You've got those bigger warforgeds for heavier work and you get combat homunculus for protection.

That doesn't happen because the human laborers riot whenever anyone tries (there's even a picture of it in one of the books). Being really efficient workers is one of the biggest reasons warforged are discriminated against.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 12:18:10 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2011, 08:41:39 AM »
You know, I just realized why there aren't any high level PCs or NPCs in Eberron.

Artificer 15 and druid 5/planar sheperd 10 prevent anyone else from ever geting that high. Dragons claim they're studying the prophecy, but they're actually just banding all togheter in an island for mutual protection against the terror provided by them. That's also why Daelkyrs prefer to sit comfly inside their prisons instead of breaking free.

Eh? I'm not sure what you mean. PCs can't get a share of warforged raptors?
That and warforged titans and that underwater thingy and good luck actualy geting an airship whitout some money cheese that would better be invested in equipment.

That doesn't happen because the human laborers riot whenever anyone tries (there's even a picture of it in one of the books). Being really efficient workers is one of the biggest reasons warforged are discriminated against.
Image source please.

That would also fall under grimstupidness, where the pitchfork human laborers are somehow a threat to the artificers and their construct armies and airships and whatnot.


Prime32

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2011, 08:50:12 AM »
Eh? I'm not sure what you mean. PCs can't get a share of warforged raptors?
That and warforged titans and that underwater thingy and good luck actualy geting an airship whitout some money cheese that would better be invested in equipment.
Vehicles and buildings have always been expensive. If you want one, you can use the stronghold rules.

That doesn't happen because the human laborers riot whenever anyone tries (there's even a picture of it in one of the books). Being really efficient workers is one of the biggest reasons warforged are discriminated against.
Image source please.

That would also fall under grimstupidness, where the pitchfork human laborers are somehow a threat to the artificers and their construct armies and airships and whatnot.
I tried to find it before posting, but couldn't. It's probably in Five Nations or The Forge of War.

And no, warforged aren't property any more and artificers can't build any more warforged (except Merrix d'Cannith, but don't tell anyone). They have the same rights as people, and look for work in the same way. A gang of laborers can easily get rid of a single warforged; if not directly, they can put pressure on their employer. If they do attack him directly, then the warforged is probably aware that if he defends himself his trial will be about as fair as To Kill A Mockingbird.

Why would the existence of aircraft reduce racism? ???
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 08:57:00 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]


skydragonknight

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2011, 09:34:04 AM »
The good guys at least have proper names, but what post-The Gamers writer seriously calls a villain "The Shadow"? :p

Well, when considering a corrupting force in a campaign setting, you have to ask yourself: Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Prime32

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2011, 06:30:38 PM »
Because it's much harder to mob up the dudes in the air.
Why would artificers want warforged unrelated to them to find jobs, to the point of stealing military vehicles and using them to attack commoners? Especially when they're competing with some of those warforged for their own jobs.

Also, found the pic:


EDIT: On high-level threats, apart from the epic dragons and rakshasa rajahs, the CR20 daelkyr, and the CR18 ascendant councellors, it's implied that there are things far worse lying in Xoriat and Dal Quor that have not yet made themselves known. Xoriat is Eberron's equivalent of the Far Realm, so they presumably have things like Brain Collectors. And the quori are remarkably similar to Dream Larvae in both appearance and origin. Then there's Il'Lashtavar, the Dreaming Dark itself. Who is basically Kaiser Ephes.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 07:19:39 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2011, 01:05:48 AM »
I like how that attack only took off 1/5 of his lifebar...

Prime32

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2011, 08:36:12 AM »
I like how that attack only took off 1/5 of his lifebar...
Boosts are really powerful in that game.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Infected

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2011, 10:21:06 AM »
Iron Wall and Gunbuster being quite sturdy helps a lot. Don't remember if that attack had a morale requirement, but if not, then Keiser Ephes could also be debuffed. Whether an attack is coming of 70 or 130 Morale makes a big difference.

oslecamo

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2011, 09:48:32 PM »
Because it's much harder to mob up the dudes in the air.
Why would artificers want warforged unrelated to them to find jobs, to the point of stealing military vehicles and using them to attack commoners? Especially when they're competing with some of those warforged for their own jobs.
For the very same reason powerfull filthy rich companies win processes over small workers and groups like greenpeace. Money is power. Warforged and artficers are more productive than mud farmers. The only logic conclusion is thus warforged and artificers geting on top of mud farmers. The common people may make all the riots they want, the governments will just call the anti-riot forces and hire the warforged and artficers anyway.

EDIT: On high-level threats, apart from the epic dragons and rakshasa rajahs, the CR20 daelkyr, and the CR18 ascendant councellors, it's implied that there are things far worse lying in Xoriat and Dal Quor that have not yet made themselves known. Xoriat is Eberron's equivalent of the Far Realm, so they presumably have things like Brain Collectors. And the quori are remarkably similar to Dream Larvae in both appearance and origin.
No, they don't.

Xoriat is a watered down version of the far realm.
Quori are watered down versions of dream larvae.

That's half the point of Eberron. Remove almost the high-power monsters from existence and just leave a few to serve as leaders of factions (and dragons because this is still Dungeons and Dragons, but they're all stuck in a island being philosophical, nice riddance). That's it. There's nothing else stronger hiding in the darkness, or it would've simply came out by now.  Heck if you somehow get above CR 15, you basically get your own cult!

Then there's Il'Lashtavar, the Dreaming Dark itself...
Based on what again? Last time I checked, when the balmarian attacked they had freaking war moons and planet-absorbing replicator machines. As their damn scouts. The quori have just a bunch of organic bugs with minor psionic powers that get a footnote in Eberron's history compared to all the other main factions.

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2011, 10:07:08 PM »
Based on what again? Last time I checked, when the balmarian attacked they had freaking war moons and planet-absorbing replicator machines. As their damn scouts. The quori have just a bunch of organic bugs with minor psionic powers that get a footnote in Eberron's history compared to all the other main factions.

Last I checked(That is to say 3.5 material) they managed to conquer pretty much a complete continent on the surface of Eberron through subterfuge. That sounds more then "a footnote"

Then again what am I to expect from the guy with the avatar of the single most horrible OG char created. And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.

oslecamo

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2011, 10:19:33 PM »
Then again what am I to expect from the guy with the avatar of the single most horrible OG char created.
That's just envy because you know Kyosuke is the only OG character manly enough to bitch-slap Sanger Zonvolt. :smirk

And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.

Funny that for a "last ditch" weapon, the Inspectors that came after it was defeated were pretty relaxed. :p

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2011, 10:39:39 PM »
Then again what am I to expect from the guy with the avatar of the single most horrible OG char created.
That's just envy because you know Kyosuke is the only OG character manly enough to bitch-slap Sanger Zonvolt. :smirk

And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.

Funny that for a "last ditch" weapon, the Inspectors that came after it was defeated were pretty relaxed. :p

Actually he isn't, in fact I don't even think that he does any kind of "bitch-slapping" to Zengar. Though Zengar certainly gets slapped around by other characters.

And when we are talking about Neviim now, you should have made that clear, it's not really moon sized, it's a big battle station, but in comparison to the earth's moon it's tiny. And again not many of them around since they are pretty much meant as a 1 per fleet deal.

Prime32

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2011, 11:14:00 PM »
The Inspired build insanely huge psychic monoliths all over the place, and no one knows what they do. Who's to say they aren't a fleet of ships equipped with "Mourning Cannons"? :p

You could argue that there's no evidence for that, but a big part of Eberron is that certain parts are deliberately left ambiguous so that you can use something suitable for your campaign. I recall one WotC thread on Cardinal Krozen where Keith Baker explained the guy's history but refused to state whether he was a good guy with extreme methods or a power-mad bully. He said he'd prefer having to figure it out each time he played an Eberron game. Likewise, the cause of the Mourning will never be explained.

As for "there may be even more dangerous things in Xoriat/Dal Quor", it says that in the ECS itself. Heck, most people don't even know they invaded - how much info do you think exists?

And concerning your comments about the Balmar Empire, the Septuagint is a last ditch weapon when things have gone terribly, terribly wrong and in the whole of the Balmar Empire there are exactly 7 Zehiruts.

Funny that for a "last ditch" weapon, the Inspectors that came after it was defeated were pretty relaxed. :p
The Inspectors are always relaxed - they're idiots. The entire reason they came was because humanity had become too dangerous. Also, the Inspectors weren't Balmarians, they were the Balmarians' enemies.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 01:34:04 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2011, 11:29:13 AM »
Why is it that everyone is complaining about Eberron having a distinct lack of high level enemies?
Quote from: ECG
10 things you need to know about Eberron...
1) If it exists in D&D it has a place in Eberron...
That seems quite definative that if it is stated up in D&D then it is in Eberron it is just up to the DM to define exactly where and what the hell it is doing.  :P
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

oslecamo

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2011, 10:49:24 PM »
The Inspired build insanely huge psychic monoliths all over the place, and no one knows what they do. Who's to say they aren't a fleet of ships equipped with "Mourning Cannons"? :p

You could argue that there's no evidence for that, but a big part of Eberron is that certain parts are deliberately left ambiguous so that you can use something suitable for your campaign. I recall one WotC thread on Cardinal Krozen where Keith Baker explained the guy's history but refused to state whether he was a good guy with extreme methods or a power-mad bully. He said he'd prefer having to figure it out each time he played an Eberron game. Likewise, the cause of the Mourning will never be explained.
I'm perfectly aware of the amiguity. And I loathe it. If I'm paying for a specific campaign setting, I expect specific details.

So yes, the ships equiped with whatever cannons only exist in your homebrewed campaign setting, and the actual Eberron campaign is a mess of black holes that threaten to consume everything around them. That's why I killed them all with fire on my own personal version.

As for "there may be even more dangerous things in Xoriat/Dal Quor", it says that in the ECS itself. Heck, most people don't even know they invaded - how much info do you think exists?
Like you just mentioned, not much, just like most of the rest of Eberron. Almost nobody knows how to make warforged, almost nobody knows what the monoliths are for, almost nobody, of course, knows anything about the quori. Yet at the end of the day warforged are being built everywhere, the monoliths are doing nothing, and the strongest quori ever recorded is a measly CR 8 (thus a more dangerous quori would be at best a somewhat respectable CR 12).

The Inspectors are always relaxed - they're idiots. The entire reason they came was because humanity had become too dangerous. Also, the Inspectors weren't Balmarians, they were the Balmarians' enemies.

False. The Inspectors all panic when cornered and are facing their iminent doom. Their boss even tries to make a run for it.

Yet the inspectors were initially unphased by the fact that the heroes beat the balmarian force. As their enemies, the Inspectors would surely know the power of the white star. They even take control of it.

If they really believed the balmarians had thrown their best and still lost, then the Inspectors would've simply glassed the Earth and called it a day. They take Earth's heroes lightly and try to simply contain them because they beat "just" the septuagim.

veekie

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2011, 04:27:00 AM »
Quote
Like you just mentioned, not much, just like most of the rest of Eberron. Almost nobody knows how to make warforged, almost nobody knows what the monoliths are for, almost nobody, of course, knows anything about the quori. Yet at the end of the day warforged are being built everywhere, the monoliths are doing nothing, and the strongest quori ever recorded is a measly CR 8 (thus a more dangerous quori would be at best a somewhat respectable CR 12).
Clarification on the quori:
Kalaraq Quori - Secrets of Sarlona, CR 20

The warforged, as mentioned, rely on lost technology to create. Thats the big secret, that the Creation Forges are powered by lost tech.

The Monoliths are intentionally black boxes, but they do this much at least
Quote from: Secrets of Sarlona
Of course, theres also the undefined way that Monoliths do something Plot for the quori.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 04:34:15 AM by veekie »
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."