Author Topic: Reasons to dislike Eberron  (Read 18119 times)

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ImperatorK

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2011, 06:12:54 PM »
And what setting was that?
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »
So, when everyone is telling you the same thing, you're completely unwilling (or unable) to argue with them, and ignoring or denying everything they've said doesn't work, being in the majority doesn't make them right, but when you yourself appeal to the majority taking your troubles to a FR fanboi forum, majority rules?  Interesting.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2011, 06:18:23 PM »
No. The people on Candlekeep have just more knowledge on FR then me, that's why I asked them for opinions.
But even points posted by someone that knows the setting in and out aren't good enough for you. Funny how not even one single argument from Tyrant wasn't refuted, and definitely not by you.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:21:31 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2011, 06:21:08 PM »
Actually, depends on the NPC role.
No DM lacks for powerful NPCs if such a role is warranted, adding a powerful NPC is a mid-game addition, depending on the sort. You can have a former adventurer rise to power(such things take under a year), a sealed evil awoken(such things only need someone foolish enough to unseal it or for a seal to unseal), arrive from another part of the world(planar in a low power setting, other continent if theres a Continent of Uberness or badass Underdark) or was created(someone makes a breakthrough that Should Not Be somewhere).
Say a Lord of Dust was awoken when the Mournland was created, and finally broke loose fully in Year -2 Circa Adventurers. Adventurers were involved when, 2 years after his release, he invades Aundaire with a legion of freed minions and takes half the country before they managed to rally a defense.

Removing an interfering NPC requires more work, as each such NPC has interests and territories they impact. The higher level they are, the wider the impact.
Say you need the Lolipope to not be present so that your PCs can wreck the power structure of Thrane. So she goes missing. Thrane is thus greatly weakened, and a theocratic uproar ensues.
This is a bad example mind you, as Jaela cannot leave her place and thus has minor impact.
So lets hypothesize, a ruler of Sharn who raised the city singlehandedly with one spell. His roles are to A) keep the city up by keeping the planar bleed JUST thin enough to allow levitating buildings but not thin enough for planars to rush in B)kick the ass of planars on the other side as they mess with the bleed C) rule Sharn D) annihilate things that threaten the structure of Sharn.
So now your PCs are going to do something like try to conquer the city. This would not work with Hypothetical Wizard Ruler, so hes going to suffer an accident. The angels on the other side has had enough and kidnapped him in force. Now the PCs are free to conquer the city....no wait, the city is about to fall, because the planar bleed is closing, the Houses, now that theres an opening for a leadership position fight for power, enemies of Sharn egg them all on, and drum up the forces to conquer the place, because they couldn't get close enough before said Wizard unleashes Slay Army spells.

See the difference?
And how do PCs feel not-insignificant in such a setting? O.o
Uh...that was a reskinned Alustriel and Silverymoon.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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kamikasei

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2011, 06:21:32 PM »
And how do PCs feel not-insignificant in such a setting? O.o
Which setting? veekie described two types: one where powerful NPCs aren't described in detail in advance and can be produced from inactivity as needed with some work by the DM to challenge her players appropriately, another where powerful NPCs are already described and active in the world and need to be removed by the DM to give her players freedom to act.

In the former case, why would the PCs feel insignificant? In the latter, where do you get the impression veekie expects them not to?
"But the delight and pride of Aulë is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work."
Bardiche/Raising Heart OTP.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2011, 06:23:53 PM »
Actually, depends on the NPC role.
No DM lacks for powerful NPCs if such a role is warranted, adding a powerful NPC is a mid-game addition, depending on the sort. You can have a former adventurer rise to power(such things take under a year), a sealed evil awoken(such things only need someone foolish enough to unseal it or for a seal to unseal), arrive from another part of the world(planar in a low power setting, other continent if theres a Continent of Uberness or badass Underdark) or was created(someone makes a breakthrough that Should Not Be somewhere).
Say a Lord of Dust was awoken when the Mournland was created, and finally broke loose fully in Year -2 Circa Adventurers. Adventurers were involved when, 2 years after his release, he invades Aundaire with a legion of freed minions and takes half the country before they managed to rally a defense.

Removing an interfering NPC requires more work, as each such NPC has interests and territories they impact. The higher level they are, the wider the impact.
Say you need the Lolipope to not be present so that your PCs can wreck the power structure of Thrane. So she goes missing. Thrane is thus greatly weakened, and a theocratic uproar ensues.
This is a bad example mind you, as Jaela cannot leave her place and thus has minor impact.
So lets hypothesize, a ruler of Sharn who raised the city singlehandedly with one spell. His roles are to A) keep the city up by keeping the planar bleed JUST thin enough to allow levitating buildings but not thin enough for planars to rush in B)kick the ass of planars on the other side as they mess with the bleed C) rule Sharn D) annihilate things that threaten the structure of Sharn.
So now your PCs are going to do something like try to conquer the city. This would not work with Hypothetical Wizard Ruler, so hes going to suffer an accident. The angels on the other side has had enough and kidnapped him in force. Now the PCs are free to conquer the city....no wait, the city is about to fall, because the planar bleed is closing, the Houses, now that theres an opening for a leadership position fight for power, enemies of Sharn egg them all on, and drum up the forces to conquer the place, because they couldn't get close enough before said Wizard unleashes Slay Army spells.

See the difference?
And how do PCs feel not-insignificant in such a setting? O.o
Uh...that was a reskinned Alustriel and Silverymoon.

I've never seen anyone get it in up to the hip before.  Normally the ankle hangs up on the tonsils.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

RobbyPants

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2011, 06:28:16 PM »
And what setting was that?
Assuming that was aimed at me, it wasn't a published setting.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

ImperatorK

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2011, 06:29:16 PM »
So let me get this straight: If in Eberron some major NPC is removed from the game (Lolipope goes missing) then it's perfectly okay, but in FR it's not allowed, because it won't be FR anymore? O.o

Quote
In the former case, why would the PCs feel insignificant?
Why wouldn't they? The players don't know of all the NPCs that roam the setting, but the NPCs "are out there somewhere", so the PCs have every right to feel insignificant.

Quote
In the latter, where do you get the impression veekie expects them not to?
Well, he was talking about Eberron and apparently only in FR PCs can feel that way. >.>

Quote
Assuming that was aimed at me, it wasn't a published setting.
How peculiar.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:31:14 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2011, 06:38:50 PM »
Funny how you objectively call me a troll for bringing up arguments that are opposite to your arguments. In a debate.
Sticking your finger in ears, saying "La la la la la" and ignoring other peoples points, and then calling them trolls for bringing them up isn't really a cool strategy.

A debate involves sound logic, an opinion, and facts to back up both. You have been stating an opinion the whole time, presenting very few facts, and not using sound logic (as I demonstrated in the other thread, you have a tendency to contradict yourself).



I didn't want to post in this thread, as I'm an unabashed Eberron fan. I'm still not going to post my opinion on some points here (other than agreeing that the Artificer is stupid-powerful).


Edit:

Quote
So let me get this straight: If in Eberron some major NPC is removed from the game (Lolipope goes missing) then it's perfectly okay, but in FR it's not allowed, because it won't be FR anymore? O.o

[spoiler]No, it's because some of the NPCs in FR are required to be there and maintain some part of the Realms' existence. The Lolipope is easily replaced by her own religion, but there would be turmoil (like when FDR died, or when Lincoln was shot). The repercussions of the Lolipope vanishing are less world-threatening than, say, one of the Chosen of Mystra vanishing (largely because of the Power Vacuum effect: The more powerful something is, the more damage it causes when it stops being there). While the Lolipope leads an entire religion, she is a figurehead and a liaison between the public and the Voice of the Silver Flame. She's easily replaced by the Voice.


Note: The Voice of the Silver Flame is not easily replaced, but is less easy to remove than the Lolipope. Hell, the writers did their best to make the Voice's existence vague (it's entirely possible she's dead and the entire thing is a hoax by the demon sealed in the flame, or if the flame itself is sentient, or other theories).[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 06:44:40 PM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

kamikasei

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2011, 06:40:43 PM »
So let me get this straight: If in Eberron some major NPC is removed from the game (Lolipope goes missing) then it's perfectly okay, but in FR it's not allowed, because it won't be FR anymore? O.o
Where was the idea of Jaela going missing brought up? I thought people were saying Eberron has good reasons why its high-level NPCs, such as her, didn't involve themselves in even high-level matters that touch on their interests - in her case, because she's bound to her city. This is in contrast to NPCs who have detailed stats and motivations, who you have to contrive to take out of the picture if you don't want them to show up when the PCs adventures are something it's established they'd want to take a hand in.
Quote
In the former case, why would the PCs feel insignificant?
Why wouldn't they? The players don't know of all the NPCs that roam the setting, but the NPCs "are out there somewhere", so the PCs have every right to feel insignificant.
Note that veekie was describing antagonists. Why wouldn't the PCs feel insignificant if, after they've won lands, titles and sweet hats for saving the Five Nations from a Next War and are officially the biggest badasses on the continent, either personal friends or sworn enemies of the faction leaders they haven't personally killed to death, an archdemon awakens and they lead the fight against it? ...I don't know, that seems kind of self-explanatory to me.
Quote
In the latter, where do you get the impression veekie expects them not to?
Well, he was talking about Eberron and apparently only in FR PCs can feel that way. >.>
No he wasn't. You may want to read more carefully because at this point it looks as though you're not really parsing the arguments and examples people are making correctly.
"But the delight and pride of Aulë is in the deed of making, and in the thing made, and neither in possession nor in his own mastery; wherefore he gives and hoards not, and is free from care, passing ever on to some new work."
Bardiche/Raising Heart OTP.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2011, 06:47:21 PM »
Quote
Assuming that was aimed at me, it wasn't a published setting.
How peculiar.
I'll just be blunt:

I'm not sure I know what you're getting at. I know you're implying something, and I don't know what it is. Nothing I've said is inconsistent with anything I've previously said in this thread. I'm assuming it this something to do with the FR thread which I haven't really read. What are you getting at?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

ImperatorK

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2011, 07:04:57 PM »
Well, I was avoiding brining FR too much because this thread is about Eberron, that's why I was kicking around the bush.
What I'm getting at is this: In the FR thread posters use this kind of arguments as proof that FR is flawed, because it's over-published (in countless novels and splatbooks), yet it happens even in not-published settings. Do you see any logic in that?
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

weenog

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2011, 07:06:46 PM »
Non-published settings that annoy and/or disinterest the players.  Published settings aren't above the same rejection for the same problems.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
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Bozwevial

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2011, 07:07:10 PM »
You guys do know this is the Eberron thread, right? Argue about the Forgotten Realms elsewhere. :p

My main problem with the setting is that later writers hijacked it and steered it toward more black and white morality instead of Baker's original concept. See Kaius for a decent example.

ImperatorK

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2011, 07:17:20 PM »
Sorry.

Quote
My main problem with the setting is that later writers hijacked it and steered it toward more black and white morality instead of Baker's original concept. See Kaius for a decent example.
Yeah. I wouldn't like that either.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2011, 07:32:09 PM »
Hmm, hadn't been keeping up with the later books. Got a quick summation?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bozwevial

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2011, 07:43:17 PM »
Hmm, hadn't been keeping up with the later books. Got a quick summation?
Kaius turns from a tragic, sympathetic figure to a stock bloodthirsty vampire. The writers focus more on the vampire part rather than the fact that his vampirism and bloodlust are forced on him in the first place.

RobbyPants

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2011, 07:48:03 PM »
Well, I was avoiding brining FR too much because this thread is about Eberron, that's why I was kicking around the bush.
What I'm getting at is this: In the FR thread posters use this kind of arguments as proof that FR is flawed, because it's over-published (in countless novels and splatbooks), yet it happens even in not-published settings. Do you see any logic in that?
I see what you're saying.

Still, if we take the approach that:
  • Super NPCs are bad
  • Too many super NPCs are worse
  • A laundry list of published super NPCs in the setting make the DM more likely to use them
Then, it seems rational to conclude that the particular setting is more likely to suffer from this problem. Sure, it's not a given, but it is a knock against the setting.

I mean, I can play Russian Roulette with a gun with one or two bullets in the gun. While I could live or die either way, I'm still going to pick the gun with only one bullet. It's less likely to end badly.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2011, 07:55:11 PM »
Hmm, hadn't been keeping up with the later books. Got a quick summation?
Kaius turns from a tragic, sympathetic figure to a stock bloodthirsty vampire. The writers focus more on the vampire part rather than the fact that his vampirism and bloodlust are forced on him in the first place.
Wow that sucks. I just discovered Ebberon as a story really, just sat down and read the whole thing, not for mechanics, then skim the story, but read it for story.
I really liked kaius, I thought it to be a interesting take to have a vampire king that wasn't a pastiche of dracula (Straud). I loved the whole harem of non-vampires who he drinks without killing, never visiting them more than once every 2 weeks.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Reasons to dislike Eberron
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2011, 08:36:21 PM »
  • "Why the hell do halflings ride dinosaurs?!"
Actually, this is almost as cool as Athasian halflings.
(well, okay, maybe not; but you get my drift)

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
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