Author Topic: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?  (Read 20335 times)

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Endarire

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Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« on: August 21, 2011, 01:05:13 AM »
And no, not all spells need a rewrite.

Some spells are poorly worded or seemingly made without balance in mind.  I'm emphasizing 3.5 here, but Pathfinder spells demanding rewrites (and not back to their 3.5 versions) belong here too.  Make it clear which version you reference.  Also, tell the source (if not core) and why.

(I already started a list in the background, but this will help me expand it.)
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Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Solo

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 01:12:27 AM »
The 3.5 PAO spell comes to mind.

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CantripN

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 01:31:51 AM »
Polymorph/Alter Self and the family, Planar Binding and it's kin, Fabricate, Wall of Stone, Freezing Glance... Basically, any spell that needs a DM to tell you what it does or does not do.

And then there's stuff like Venomfire, Dweomer Vortex and the like, which no one allows, because they're just too much.
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Endarire

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 01:33:41 AM »
Cantrip: I understand some of those, but fabricateWall of stone?  They seem reasonable, though they can make spiffy stone structures.

What's dweomer vortex?
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Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Garryl

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 01:42:40 AM »
I've always wanted to add the [Cure] descriptor to the cure wounds line of spells, just so the Cleric's spontaneous casting can refer to something that's properly defined. Ditto for the inflict wounds and summon nature's ally spell lines. Probably summon monster, too, for good measure.

Entangle and a few other Druid plant-based BFC spells could use some definition on their height. How far away from the ground (or from the local plant life in the case of trees and whatever) do you have to be to get away? Is it all the way outside of that 40 ft. radius sphere, or just 5-10 feet off the ground?
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 02:04:16 AM »
Sounded like you started with spells for the Errata Project.

Absolute clarification on Shapechange-like effects don't grant Spellcasting would be nice. Right now things kinda they simple are a Class Feature (like skill points/BAB/Saves/etc) which is normally not passed. However, the MMV's creatures bypass that by explicitly stating their spellcasting traits stem from a Extraordinary ability which is of course is inherited though Shapechange. So regardless of what Spells is or not changing into one of those creatures does give you casting. And once you have it then what? Do you get to pick your list of Known Spells each time? Did you need to rest prior to preparing Spell Slots? Does recasting replenish the Slots? What if my Alignment is completely opposite of the creature I'm turning into would it affect granted Domains (if any)?

A tiny little "This spell (and others like it) cannot grant innate spellcasting of creatures you turn into." would have not only prevented things like that but shown intent towards handling the MMV creatures.
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Echoes

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 04:39:42 AM »
The entire polymorph line needs a grounds-up revision. Alter self should stay at 2nd level and let you pick from a fixed list of benefits - movement modes, armor bonus, etc. Polymorph needs to be straight character replacement and should run off of CR rather than HD. Anything which leads to you being a fire giant with spellcasting is inherently broken and can't work. Shapechange should be the same way, except that you keep the round-by-round switching, better size and type options, and the higher CR cap. PAO is fine too with this revision.

Wish needs to lose the XP cost for the lower-tier effects like duplicating spells, wishing for wealth, and gaining inherent bonuses. Cap the value of magic items you can wish for (25k works), and make all items that grant wishes use the 5k XP cost in their pricing. This prevents the wishing for more wishes infinite loop but makes it so that casting wish is actually a viable option.

Make celerity and other effects like it cost your next action rather than dazing you. You still get the "oh shit!" button but now it always comes with a cost, rather than giving people a work-around.

That's my list of most broken spells and their fixes. There are a lot of spells which are underpowered, including most evocations, but that's a much longer list of fixes.
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 05:19:00 AM »
Polymorph needs to be straight character replacement and should run off of CR rather than HD.

I was thinking more like the shapeshift druid variant.  Have the specific animal you turn into be largely a matter of flavor and have mechanical effects fall into a few broad categories.  I think that variant also had the right idea with ability adjustments instead of replacement (except for making it an enhancement bonus).  The bonuses should probably scale with caster level. 

SanjiWatsuki

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 06:16:22 AM »
Rock Burst out of Shining South. It had a minimum amount of rock to destroy, but no maximum. The poor wording by RAW means it could destroy a tectonic plate.

CantripN

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 08:03:12 AM »
Cantrip: I understand some of those, but fabricateWall of stone?  They seem reasonable, though they can make spiffy stone structures.

What's dweomer vortex?

DV is a little 3rd level spell from Anauroch the Empire of Shade. It's a Perfect Dispel.

As for the others: Our home group doesn't allow world-changing spells, meaning Permanent spells, or ones that make things for free that would otherwise cost money and/or XP, are banned and/or changed.
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Bigtuna

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 09:20:58 AM »
spectral hand. Does it provoke AoO?

Caelic

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2011, 12:41:24 PM »
Spells that deal ability damage.  Ray of Stupidity is the most egregious example.  They need some sort of cap on effectiveness, whether it be a saving throw, an inability to reduce a stat to 0, or a drastic increase in level.

Mixster

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2011, 02:46:13 PM »
Most Battlefield Control spells need to either affect one target very well, or many targets weakly, the things like Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog and Black tentacles that completely rape a group of enemies are just ridiculous.

Most spells with an XP component are very underused, these should perhaps be powered down enough to warrant a loss of the XP component.

Most spells that allow no save or SR are very good, these should perhaps be reconfigured to make them either a very minor effect, or allow some kind of save.

Material Components that aren't costly probably have to go, due to their vast sillyness.
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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2011, 05:16:13 PM »
Any spell with multiple scaling versions. Summon Monster, the Polymorph I, II, III, etc spells as mentioned in that other thread, and so on.

Make them scale according to the spell slot used to cast them, so sorcerers won't have to take 9 versions of the exact same spell.
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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2011, 05:31:00 PM »
Any spell with multiple scaling versions. Summon Monster, the Polymorph I, II, III, etc spells as mentioned in that other thread, and so on.

Make them scale according to the spell slot used to cast them, so sorcerers won't have to take 9 versions of the exact same spell.
+1

What do you guys think about Hold Person/Monster?  I have had occasion to take another look at that line of spells.  The thing is, I never see them cast nowadays.  They just seem so impossibly weak compared to other options available.  Am I wrong?  And, if I'm not, is there some way to make them more usable?  My first thought would be to change the condition they inflict -- just make paralyzed something where you can't take physical actions (so a slightly nerfed form of stunning), removing the coup de grace set-up -- and then maybe give them a short duration, but remove the whole save ends mechanic.  Or, make them lower level but keep the save ends, and still change the condition since I'm not a huge fan of coup de grace anyway.  Any thoughts?  I did some searching and couldn't find any real suggestions. 

Garryl

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2011, 07:00:32 PM »
I could have sworn (incorrectly) that Hold Person had a clause about you not being considered helpless from that paralysis. Thanks for pointing that out.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2011, 08:28:39 PM »
Contact Other Plane and other blank check divinations need a massive rewrite.

Any spell with multiple scaling versions. Summon Monster, the Polymorph I, II, III, etc spells as mentioned in that other thread, and so on.
That's one of the nicer spell types introduced in Kalamar.
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JaronK

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2011, 08:55:42 PM »
Cantrip: I understand some of those, but fabricateWall of stone?  They seem reasonable, though they can make spiffy stone structures.

Fabricate can just straight up generate wealth.  Wall of Stone can do the same.  Magic is a regenerating resource (you get the slots back each day) and thus should not build permanent bonuses without some permanent cost (like xp costs or similar).

Anyway, I do think spells like Fabricate need a reworking.  Flesh to Salt just needs a simple "it's a bunch of random salts, most aren't good for eating, and it's tough to purify" line in there to stop endless wealth tricks.  Teleport should probably have a "you can only teleport there if you've been there before" clause on any accurate teleporting to avoid just bypassing all traveling adventures.  Genesis needs a "no mucking with time" clause on the arcane version, like the divine version has.  The polymorph line needs a "but you don't get spells" clause among other things.  And no spell should completely blow away a skill (see Arcane Lock and Knock vs. Open Lock).  Also, a few spells are just written wrong, like that gaze attack spell in SpC that accidentally gives you a permanent gaze attack (it's supposed to be a one off).

And no spell should just replace party members (this means you, Animate Dread Warrior).  Also, Planar Binding needs to be fixed to avoid wish loops, though honestly I wonder if having Efreetis be able to force you to pay the xp cost for Wishes might help a great deal.

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Re: Which spells are in biggest need of a rewrite?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2011, 10:06:51 PM »
Also, Planar Binding needs to be fixed to avoid wish loops, though honestly I wonder if having Efreetis be able to force you to pay the xp cost for Wishes might help a great deal.

JaronK
Or just make a genie-type 'wish' be them using their normal abilities for a particular task.
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